Parents EU1 residence card applications refused - please help

[shpirtshqipe]

I see mgb’s point however out of curiosity,

Since the original application was made under dependency in the parents home country, does not this still stand until the end of the process?
In other words although INIS has taken this long to reach a decision, is the sponsor able to use this as further proof of dependency (my understanding is that whilst one waits a decision to be made, their status does not change?).

I see what the directive states but again would this not apply to the original application? Arguably dependency isn’t proven in Ireland since a precondition of applying for the Residence Card in the first place is being a dependent relative in the home country?

It would be great if there was a court case won in similar situation as the OP

—————————————————-

As for Schengen States (EU States) you can move there and re-apply for parents Residence Card however it may raise the risk of refusal again substantially given the Irish Application. You’ll most likely be required to disclose previous applications

[Bobthemoggie]

Hi Bobthemoggie
Many thanks for your input below.
I have now submitted my appeal through a solicitor, but same time I am exploring other options available to me as well.

Do you know visa requirements if I plan to travel to Switzerland or Schengen zone, from Ireland?
(My parents currently have temp stamp4 which is expiring end of this month, and I am not sure if INIS will grant them further extensions, as its already been 12 months on Temp stamp 4. )

Secondly, will I be able to file dependency application in other Schengen countries based on their UK/Ireland dependency on me, now that they have been part of my household since Oct 2016 - time they first arrived in the UK?

[Note I am not an expert..]
I guess first exhausting your options (appeal etc) in Ireland could be an good idea.
Since Oct2016 looks to be a long time, I guess cautiously checking with Solvit on requirement of 'part of same household' part, which becomes entitles even for non-dependent immediate family members going by textbook, perhaps could be a good idea. I am not expert so have your own research and judgement.
Generally many of Schengen countries are pretty quick for "non-EU Family Member of EU citizen" visa applications,( if you're going to go there as a Worker and contribute to the economy).
Have your own research on where you'll have fair chances of success, as every member state process RC application differently and have varying waiting times.

Switzerland: Is not part of EU. So EU rules generally do not apply there.
And even EU citizen needs Work Permit, which is dependent on duration of employment contract.
But it looks like they allow your family members to stay for entire duration, as long as you're working there & could demonstrate to afford the cost of living for entire family unit.
Nevertheless, you can find more information on their official site:
https://www.ch.ch/en/family-reunification-eu-efta/

Good luck

****************************************************
Hi Bobthemoggie
I agree with you, that exhausting my options here first will be sensible move. I will also check with Solvit regarding 'part of same household' criterion.

Regarding moving to Schengen countries, I note reply from 'shpirtshqipe' that parents dependency cannot be carried over from within the EU, if it does not get accepted here in Ireland first!
Have I understood this correctly? Please correct me if I am wrong.

Tried sending you a PM. check your settings.
As I am not expert so, unable to confirm your understanding.
What I could suggest is- do continue and follow-up your current application and also carefully study the EU directive so that in worst case sit of application refusal and if you decide to move to another EU country, you'll be prepared & informed, as EU member states perhaps do process the application slightly differently.
Good luck!

[pal80uk]

I see mgb’s point however out of curiosity,

Since the original application was made under dependency in the parents home country, does not this still stand until the end of the process?
In other words although INIS has taken this long to reach a decision, is the sponsor able to use this as further proof of dependency (my understanding is that whilst one waits a decision to be made, their status does not change?).

I see what the directive states but again would this not apply to the original application? Arguably dependency isn’t proven in Ireland since a precondition of applying for the Residence Card in the first place is being a dependent relative in the home country?

It would be great if there was a court case won in similar situation as the OP

—————————————————-

As for Schengen States (EU States) you can move there and re-apply for parents Residence Card however it may raise the risk of refusal again substantially given the Irish Application. You’ll most likely be required to disclose previous applications

Hi shpirtshqipe,
My original application was made based on current dependency from within the UK/Ireland, due to change in circumstances! Not from parents home country.
________________________
I see where you are coming from, in your second paragraph. Are you suggesting if my reasons are valid, I will get positive outcome here in Ireland itself?

[pal80uk]

Hi Bobthemoggie
Many thanks for your input below.
I have now submitted my appeal through a solicitor, but same time I am exploring other options available to me as well.

Do you know visa requirements if I plan to travel to Switzerland or Schengen zone, from Ireland?
(My parents currently have temp stamp4 which is expiring end of this month, and I am not sure if INIS will grant them further extensions, as its already been 12 months on Temp stamp 4. )

Secondly, will I be able to file dependency application in other Schengen countries based on their UK/Ireland dependency on me, now that they have been part of my household since Oct 2016 - time they first arrived in the UK?

[Note I am not an expert..]
I guess first exhausting your options (appeal etc) in Ireland could be an good idea.
Since Oct2016 looks to be a long time, I guess cautiously checking with Solvit on requirement of 'part of same household' part, which becomes entitles even for non-dependent immediate family members going by textbook, perhaps could be a good idea. I am not expert so have your own research and judgement.
Generally many of Schengen countries are pretty quick for "non-EU Family Member of EU citizen" visa applications,( if you're going to go there as a Worker and contribute to the economy).
Have your own research on where you'll have fair chances of success, as every member state process RC application differently and have varying waiting times.

Switzerland: Is not part of EU. So EU rules generally do not apply there.
And even EU citizen needs Work Permit, which is dependent on duration of employment contract.
But it looks like they allow your family members to stay for entire duration, as long as you're working there & could demonstrate to afford the cost of living for entire family unit.
Nevertheless, you can find more information on their official site:
https://www.ch.ch/en/family-reunification-eu-efta/

Good luck

****************************************************
Hi Bobthemoggie
I agree with you, that exhausting my options here first will be sensible move. I will also check with Solvit regarding 'part of same household' criterion.

Regarding moving to Schengen countries, I note reply from 'shpirtshqipe' that parents dependency cannot be carried over from within the EU, if it does not get accepted here in Ireland first!
Have I understood this correctly? Please correct me if I am wrong.

Tried sending you a PM. check your settings.
As I am not expert so, unable to confirm your understanding.
What I could suggest is- do continue and follow-up your current application and also carefully study the EU directive so that in worst case sit of application refusal and if you decide to move to another EU country, you'll be prepared & informed, as EU member states perhaps do process the application slightly differently.
Good luck!

Hi Bobthemoggie,
Unfortunately, I do not have permission to receive/view private messages.
I do like your advice above and will check further which EU state will work best for me!
If you are aware, are you able to suggest few countries which have processed applications slighter quicker than the rest?

[Capricorn]

Hi pal80uk - did you get any further with your application? Any response back from INIS?

[pal80uk]

Hi pal80uk - did you get any further with your application? Any response back from INIS?

No nothing yet, but through solicitor I have sent them another letter yesterday requesting extension for temp stamp 4, while application is under process. Our stamp 4 expires next week.

Lets see if they will extend it further, as its already over 1 year on temp stamp 4, and Garda said they cannot do any further extensions, unless INIS instructs them to do so.

So lets wait and see!

Also my solicitor could not submit the reply to their request within the deadline (Wed 1st march), due to snowfall. Solicitor posted replies on Mon 6th March, which INIS acknowledged on the 7th Mar. I hope this does not become an issue.

[Capricorn]

So is there a rule for no extension beyond 12 months? Also did the solicitor hint as to how long will it take this time to get a response?

In fact I have a question related to the situation you are in. If a person has applied and awaiting response for the initial application and:

1- The initial temp4 granted expires, How does one get an extension?
2- In case the initial application is refused and one applies for an appeal, can one get an extension or no extension is allowed at all?

[Capricorn]

No nothing yet, but through solicitor I have sent them another letter yesterday requesting extension for temp stamp 4, while application is under process. Our stamp 4 expires next week.

Lets see if they will extend it further, as its already over 1 year on temp stamp 4, and Garda said they cannot do any further extensions, unless INIS instructs them to do so.

So lets wait and see!

Also my solicitor could not submit the reply to their request within the deadline (Wed 1st march), due to snowfall. Solicitor posted replies on Mon 6th March, which INIS acknowledged on the 7th Mar. I hope this does not become an issue.

Hi Pal80uk, any luck or further update?

Also, who is your solicitor? is it allowed to mention the name here on the forum?

[CR001]

No nothing yet, but through solicitor I have sent them another letter yesterday requesting extension for temp stamp 4, while application is under process. Our stamp 4 expires next week.

Lets see if they will extend it further, as its already over 1 year on temp stamp 4, and Garda said they cannot do any further extensions, unless INIS instructs them to do so.

So lets wait and see!

Also my solicitor could not submit the reply to their request within the deadline (Wed 1st march), due to snowfall. Solicitor posted replies on Mon 6th March, which INIS acknowledged on the 7th Mar. I hope this does not become an issue.

Hi Pal80uk, any luck or further update?

Also, who is your solicitor? is it allowed to mention the name here on the forum?

No, it is not permitted to name or post details of solicitors.

[Capricorn]

Hi Pal80uk, any luck or further update?

Also, who is your solicitor? is it allowed to mention the name here on the forum?

No, it is not permitted to name or post details of solicitors.
[/quote]

Ok, thanks for letting me know CR001, so I just keep to my original question - Pal80uk any further update at all with your case?

[pal80uk]

So is there a rule for no extension beyond 12 months? Also did the solicitor hint as to how long will it take this time to get a response?

In fact I have a question related to the situation you are in. If a person has applied and awaiting response for the initial application and:

1- The initial temp4 granted expires, How does one get an extension?
2- In case the initial application is refused and one applies for an appeal, can one get an extension or no extension is allowed at all?

We were advised by local GARDA that initial extension will be granted by them. Any further extensions after that will have to be requested direct from INIS. We have now requested further extension for STAMP4 while our application is under process, still awaiting response back from INIS.

I have also read somewhere on this forum, from people who have been given extensions after refusals, when they submitted appeal - full 9 months.

[Capricorn]

Pal80UK, how can I PM you? I dont see that option when I try to send a message?

[CR001]

Pal80UK, how can I PM you? I dont see that option when I try to send a message?

Neither you or user 'Pal80UK' have the privilege of the PM function yet.

Members should post in public so that all may benefit and any incorrect information or advice can be corrected.

[Capricorn]

Hi Pal80UK, Any further update on your case?

I am in similar situation and today got the refusal and hence asking if you got any lucky in your review process. I am going to file the review app in next few days. Did you manage to get the approval for getting an extension during this process?

[pal80uk]

Hi Capricorn and all

"Good News" I finally received 5yr residence card for my parents on Thurs 26/04/18!!!! We applied initially on 09/03/17, it took just over a year for us.

I wish you all good luck with your applications too .

Now that I have got this approval, can gurus please advice me on the following :

1) Will my parents require visa to travel to UK or Schengen zone?
2) Will my parents be eligible for medical card or do we need to buy insurance for their medical?
3) If parents obtain medical card, will it affect their Permanent Residence application after 5yr? Will it be classed as claiming benefits?
4) Parents received 9 months stamp4 after they submitted their application. Will this time also count towards their 5yr residence? Or will this start from the date we receive new 5yr residence card?
5) Do I (EU citizen) have to remain in continuous employment throughout 5yr period, to ensure my parents EU status is maintained? What if I am unemployed between jobs for 2-3 months? I am not clear on this, and not sure how this will affect us going forward, or if there is something I need to be careful with.

We have received this visa and are grateful to INIS for this, and just want to make sure I do not break any rule, unknowingly . I look forward to your suggestions and advise on this please.

Many thanks
Mahabir

[petebig]

Hi Capricorn and all

"Good News" I finally received 5yr residence card for my parents on Thurs 26/04/18!!!! We applied initially on 09/03/17, it took just over a year for us.

I wish you all good luck with your applications too .

Now that I have got this approval, can gurus please advice me on the following :

1) Will my parents require visa to travel to UK or Schengen zone?
2) Will my parents be eligible for medical card or do we need to buy insurance for their medical?
3) If parents obtain medical card, will it affect their Permanent Residence application after 5yr? Will it be classed as claiming benefits?
4) Parents received 9 months stamp4 after they submitted their application. Will this time also count towards their 5yr residence? Or will this start from the date we receive new 5yr residence card?
5) Do I (EU citizen) have to remain in continuous employment throughout 5yr period, to ensure my parents EU status is maintained? What if I am unemployed between jobs for 2-3 months? I am not clear on this, and not sure how this will affect us going forward, or if there is something I need to be careful with.

We have received this visa and are grateful to INIS for this, and just want to make sure I do not break any rule, unknowingly . I look forward to your suggestions and advise on this please.

Many thanks
Mahabir

Hi Mahabir (pal80uk)

Firstly, congratulations to you and your parents for standing their ground and get what is your/their right.

Secondly, I'd be grateful if you elaborate a bit what argument you put forward in review and/or new evidence, if any? In particular, did you make any submissions to prove dependence prior to arrival in the State.

Thirdly, I'd try my best to answer your queries. I am not an expert therefore open to correction by others.

1) As long as they are accompanied by you, have their EU FAM residence card and birth certificate etc they can travel to UK and Schengen without a visa.

2) Their residence is based on you, an EU citizen, exercising his treaty rights in Ireland. As long as you are exercising those rights as mentioned in the Regulations then you and your family are to be treated same as Irish citizen and that means access to welfare too. In a nutshell, yes they can apply and get medical card if they qualify for it on its on merit (i.e. income thresholds etc)

Under EU law, Comprehensive sickness insurance (csi) is only required when you and your family members are residing in State on basis of 'having sufficient resources'. It means you are not employed or self-employed in the State but reside here and live off your savings and/or other source of income. If that is the case then you and all family members need to have csi in order to prove that you won't be burden on state.

As long as you are working in Ireland you or your parents do not need CSI. They can apply for medical card too.

3) As mentioned above as long as you are exercising your treaty rights you and your family members are to be treated same as Irish citizen. If an Irish citizen qualifies for an medical card based on eligibility requirements for it your parents should too. Having said that, it shouldn't have any negative impact in future residency applications.

4) I believe the residence card you receive will be of five years (on top of time spent on temporary stamps) from the date your parents register themselves at inis/garda following minister's approval of their EU1 application/review. I am not sure if you are asking if time spent on Temp Stamp 4 will count towards residence requirements for naturalisation as Irish citizen. If that is the case, yes time spent on Temp stamp 4 count towards rekonable 5 years residence necessary for naturalisation.

5) I am not clear on this either so unable to comment. Sorry!

Hope the above information helps.

Regards

[pal80uk]

Thanks Petebig

My reasoning was 'change in circumstances' when I was in the UK - I stated that after living with parents in the UK, I discovered parents required long term care which was not available to them in their home country, due to family situations. Dad is partially sighted and has hearing difficulty; and both struggled to manage their day to day activities. I provided some test reports to confirm above.

I work full time and wife part-time, and between us we can provide that long term care to parents, as we get decent salary between us every month too.

Moreover Brexit had given me personal reasons to move to Ireland, as there is so much uncertainty and I did not want to wait and than find out there are no more job prospects. My research to move Ireland pre-dates parents arrival and I had heard from friends here that my job sector was really booming with better pay and job prospects. I provided payslips to show difference in salary (better pay here), that I only left my UK job once I secured a role here, that I was on career break - and kept my old job as back up plan, in case if things did not work out here, I can go back to my job in UK.

It was difficult to put everything in writing, not sure what made INIS change their mind, but this is all I explained to INIS.

[petebig]

Thanks Petebig

My reasoning was 'change in circumstances' when I was in the UK - I stated that after living with parents in the UK, I discovered parents required long term care which was not available to them in their home country, due to family situations. Dad is partially sighted and has hearing difficulty; and both struggled to manage their day to day activities. I provided some test reports to confirm above.

I work full time and wife part-time, and between us we can provide that long term care to parents, as we get decent salary between us every month too.

Moreover Brexit had given me personal reasons to move to Ireland, as there is so much uncertainty and I did not want to wait and than find out there are no more job prospects. My research to move Ireland pre-dates parents arrival and I had heard from friends here that my job sector was really booming with better pay and job prospects. I provided payslips to show difference in salary (better pay here), that I only left my UK job once I secured a role here, that I was on career break - and kept my old job as back up plan, in case if things did not work out here, I can go back to my job in UK.

It was difficult to put everything in writing, not sure what made INIS change their mind, but this is all I explained to INIS.

Pal80uk,

Thank you for the details. Congratulations again!

Regards

[Capricorn]

Hi Mahabir (pal80uk)

Congrats for this good news. My application was very similar to yours and I also provided all medical and financial proof. However in my case they refused the application and gave me appeal/review rights.

Can you please confirm if you got this during review or just after the first letter for "proposed refusal"?
I know we dont have PM rights, and I have already hired a solicitor for review, but is there a way I can find out the solicitor you used or any additional document that I can provide in terms of any specific clause in law or directive that can help my case too? Admins anything you can help with here?

Regards

[CR001]

Hi Mahabir (pal80uk)

Congrats for this good news. My application was very similar to yours and I also provided all medical and financial proof. However in my case they refused the application and gave me appeal/review rights.

Can you please confirm if you got this during review or just after the first letter for "proposed refusal"?
I know we dont have PM rights, and I have already hired a solicitor for review, but is there a way I can find out the solicitor you used or any additional document that I can provide in terms of any specific clause in law or directive that can help my case too? Admins anything you can help with here?

Regards

Not permitted to post names or details of solicitors. No exceptions.

[pal80uk]

Hi Mahabir (pal80uk)

Congrats for this good news. My application was very similar to yours and I also provided all medical and financial proof. However in my case they refused the application and gave me appeal/review rights.

Can you please confirm if you got this during review or just after the first letter for "proposed refusal"?
I know we dont have PM rights, and I have already hired a solicitor for review, but is there a way I can find out the solicitor you used or any additional document that I can provide in terms of any specific clause in law or directive that can help my case too? Admins anything you can help with here?

Regards

Hi Capricorn
We got approval after initial letter proposing to refuse. Details I provided above is all we said, and not sure what more you could add. Maybe try to explain everything in little more detail and back up with documentation.

I did use a solicitor too, but honestly I was not satisfied with their service. In all my experiences with Solicitors, I found they sweet talk with you before the case and after you make payment, they become like strangers - tone and everything changes. Our application was submitted 3 days late, as they tried to submit everything last minute and could not do it.

My advice would be dont just pay them money in one go, maybe split it so you pay half after they have made the submission in time, this way, atleast they will listen to you as you will still owe them money. You will have to chase them up on a regular basis.

All the best!

[Bobthemoggie]

Hi Mahabir (pal80uk)

Congrats for this good news. My application was very similar to yours and I also provided all medical and financial proof. However in my case they refused the application and gave me appeal/review rights.

Can you please confirm if you got this during review or just after the first letter for "proposed refusal"?
I know we dont have PM rights, and I have already hired a solicitor for review, but is there a way I can find out the solicitor you used or any additional document that I can provide in terms of any specific clause in law or directive that can help my case too? Admins anything you can help with here?

Regards

Hi Capricorn
We got approval after initial letter proposing to refuse. Details I provided above is all we said, and not sure what more you could add. Maybe try to explain everything in little more detail and back up with documentation.

I did use a solicitor too, but honestly I was not satisfied with their service. In all my experiences with Solicitors, I found they sweet talk with you before the case and after you make payment, they become like strangers - tone and everything changes. Our application was submitted 3 days late, as they tried to submit everything last minute and could not do it.

My advice would be dont just pay them money in one go, maybe split it so you pay half after they have made the submission in time, this way, atleast they will listen to you as you will still owe them money. You will have to chase them up on a regular basis.

All the best!

Hey Pal80uk,
Congrats!
I guess most of your queries are answered in detail.
Based on my limited understanding (* Iam not a expert), I will say-
> I guess you can easily accompany your family members to another EU country (on EU FM RC).
But bearing in mind Ireland is not a Schengen Zone counrty so make sure that- you'll be able to return back on the airline without any issues (as Budget airlines sometime denies/strand people with EU FM RC). Taking parents to UK for visit / trip- I will say better avoid it for timebeing.
> After living continuously for 1 year EU FM gather additional rights, that means you can take career break etc for reasonable amount of time. but personal view- as its case of Old dependent parents so please be careful about this. (**Please verify this in official documentation)..
Good luck

[pal80uk]

Hi Bobthemoggie

Thanks for clarifying above.

Could you please also advise if my parents can travel unaccompanied to and from their home country and transit via UK.

Will this cause any immigration issue - when taking connecting flight from the UK?

My understanding is, I only need to accompany them, when their final destination will be within the EU?
Could you please advise on this.

[pal80uk]

Hi Bobthemoggie

Thanks for clarifying above.

Could you please also advise if my parents can travel unaccompanied to and from their home country and transit via UK.

Will this cause any immigration issue - when taking connecting flight from the UK?

My understanding is, I only need to accompany them, when their final destination will be within the EU?
Could you please advise on this.

Will it be an issue, as parents initially came to the UK on visit visa, before coming to the Ireland.
They will be travelling to India.
If its going to cause issues, should I than escort them to and from India - (as worst case scenario).
please advise.

[Imran4577]

Hi Mahabir,
I am on the same situation that you used be. I receive a refusal letter with same wording like you for my mother. I am going to make an appeal. Can you please give me some advice? Your refusal letter and my refusal letter are same only the names are different. Here is my email address: email address removed by moderator. Please kindly help me with your valuable advice.
Your situation and my situation are same. My mother came in London as a visitor then we move to Ireland. My mother had a family business and some regular earnings in Bangladesh.
Can you please explain me how to make an appeal?
Which form shall I use?
Thanks
Imran