Directive 2004/38/EC thread

nrubdarb · Post by **nrubdarb** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:20 am

Hi Richard & 86ti,

I have now contacted both Solvit and Citizen Sign Post and am awaiting a reply. Other than that, I also don't know about any other resources. Short of becoming a German citizen and bothering my MEP

The research* I have done has however clarified HOW I want to complain, and this is the core of my argument:

According to the EU Directive, one of the following two situations should be applicable if I want to travel with my Russian wife to the UK. (Let's say, to visit friends for 3 days in London.)

EITHER

1. My wife should be able to get a visa by sending her passport and her marriage certificate to the appropriate authorities.

OR

2. She should be able to simply walk in to the UK by showing her German Residency Permit.

Neither of these are currently allowed by the UK.

Ignoring the excessive biometric regulations for the moment, the documentation requirements for 1) are so excessive - even greater than for a normal 6-month visa - that one cannot possibly state that the UK is in any way compliant with the EU Directive. The Family Permit (i.e. visa) application form is 17 pages long itself. (And the online application system is so broken, that it forces you to answer ALL of the questions - even when some of these are irrelevant.)

For 2), this is, according to the UK, illegal.

I have mentioned this in my letters to SOLVIT and Citizen Sign Post.

What I would be interested in, is what response you got, Richard?

Cheers,

Ed

* My reference documents are:

UK Borders document on policy: http://www.bia.homeoffice.gov.uk/siteco ... annexa.pdf

EU Directive info itself, which has an example of an Italian man coming with his Russian wife to London which is currently NOT POSSIBLE.

EU guide to making the most of the new Directive "freedom", which, again does not apply to the UK.

Last two all on this nice blog posting: http://eumovement.wordpress.com/directive-200438ec/.

nrubdarb · Post by **nrubdarb** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:15 pm

86ti wrote: Maybe I am just blind or ignorant or both but people in this forum keep telling that they would complain to someone, doing this or that, etc.. Page 1 of this thread mentions things like Solvit and Citizen Sign post. But what other options do we have? Maybe we need a compilation of contacte addresses and procedures?

I, too, would be interested in that.

Solvit and Signpost I know.

I'm now in the process of re-registering myself in the UK so I can actually pretend to have an MEP.

Stupid me for letting that go!

Cheers,

Ed

Richard66 · Post by **Richard66** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:25 am

The Signpost service sent me a letter saying my wife could accompany me without a visa.

A letter from the European Commission said the same.

I made a complaint to the European Parliament and to the European Commission. Solvit is useless: they are no more than lackeys of the UK government and will tell you that your wife doesn't even qualify for an EEA FP, but only a visa.

Now, if you actually showed up at the port of entry, marriage certificate in hand, both passports, residence cards and proof that you are exercising treaty rights... According to the UK regulations she will need to be let it. I almost tried this once, but was stopped because we couldn't find a hotel in Paris to stay overnight (we live in Italy and the airline had refused us boarding). We don't know when we'll try again, as at present we are a bit busy and holidays are not in the books.

nrubdarb · Post by **nrubdarb** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:32 am

Richard,

Many thanks for the very useful info!

I'll keep it in mind and also see what Solvit/Signpost say.

Note that I have contacted the German Solvit people. Will be interesting to see if they refer my to the UK one, or attempt to answer it themselves.

You also highlight a good point with the airline: short of driving thru France and showing up at the docks, there's little chance any carrier will let us on anyway, so we would probably "fail at the first gate" quite literally...

Then again, France is certainly not far away, my parents visit it regularly, and a ferry ticket across to Dover costs next-to-nothing (or at least it did a few years ago when I was there).

So a kind of guerrilla raid action might be possible just to test the water.

Just one further question: I am assuming all along that I am exercising treaty rights when visiting the UK with my wife.

That is correct, isn't it?

Cheers,

Ed

mym · Post by **mym** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:42 am

nrubdarb wrote: Just one further question: I am assuming all along that I am exercising treaty rights when visiting the UK with my wife.

That is correct, isn't it?

You don't need to for the first three months.

It's only for stays over that length that you need to be exercising a treaty right.

sham · Post by **sham** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 6:35 pm

I have been trying to extract some information regarding the Directive mentioned above from different embassies' website, and they give different information from each other.

I have recently got a residence card as a non-EU spouse of an EU national exercising treaty rights in the UK, i can see that some EU countries don't require a Visa if I'm travelling with my partners, i.e Germany, whereas others do require me to apply for a schengen visa (with minimum document required) even if we are travelling together.

my question is: if i apply for a schengen visa (i.e at the french embassy in London), omitting some fields in the application form as a spouse of EU national, will i be able to use this short-stay visa to travel alone to France? or does my EU spouse have to accompany me when travelling there?

Following this link: http://www.emirates.com/uk/english/plan ... ments.aspx

if Poland is chosen for a non-EU who has a residence in the UK, the result:

POLAND (PL)

Passport required (must be valid at least 6 months after
arrival. However, up to the discretion of the Immigration
Authorities a validity of 3 months may be applied).

1. Visa not required for a max. stay of 3 months, provided
holding a residence permit issued to a family member of an
E.E.A. or Swiss national.

2. In all other cases: visa required.

However, it's not mentioned that the couple should be travelling together !!!!

pierre75 · Post by **pierre75** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 8:39 pm

OK ...

The best is maybe to start by getting with you the official guide of the best use of the 2004/38 in .pdf that was published by the European Commission (26 pages).

You can ask printed copy of the guide at the liberty, security and justice desk at the Commission in Bruxelles. It had been translated in more than 15 languages. they don't like to much to speak about it but they still have it. Just ask to their archive officer a copy to be sent by post to you.

If you want to know how is it with the application of the directive as by 2008 (in top of our personnal experience), it could be of interest to take a look to the fifth report on the European Citizenship :
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... FIN:EN:PDF

Look the third chapter : FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT AND THE RIGHT OF RESIDENCE

Also, it maybe relevant to you to take a look to the french multinational website with english translation : http://translate.google.com/translate?u ... l=fr&tl=en

sham · Post by **sham** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 9:40 am

thanks for the reply. i think i wasn't clear in my question, my question is :
does being married to EU national or even having a residence in UK as EU family member make it easier when aveling alone in and out of a schengen member?

thank you a lot

sham · Post by **sham** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:58 pm

As a non-EU family member of an EU-family member, after filling in the schengen application form, leaving the field with star beside them since you don't have to fill them as a an EU family member.

my question: upon receiving the schengen visa, can i travel alone? or do i have to travel with my EU spouse since i didn't have to pay the visa fee?

mym · Post by **mym** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:55 pm

A Schengen Visa is a Schengen Visa.

I am not aware of any extra restrictions if you get it because you are a spouse. Is anyone else?

Richard66 · Post by **Richard66** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:42 am

No restrictions whatsoever. The Immigration police don't even get to know if the Schengen visa you have is because you are a family member or not.

86ti · Post by **86ti** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 12:40 pm

Richard66 wrote:No restrictions whatsoever. The Immigration police don't even get to know if the Schengen visa you have is because you are a family member or not.

I was just about to answer that I would have seen two possibilities:
1) the remarks field on the visa itself is used
2) the data is entered to the Schengen Information System (What data does this database hold anyway? I know you can request information about yourself but I never did so.)

But there is still the Schengen visa application form which asks whether you are EEA family or not. Do they use this information (together with the relevant documents) just to calculate the visa fees?

86ti · Post by **86ti** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:51 pm

nrubdarb wrote:
86ti wrote: Maybe I am just blind or ignorant or both but people in this forum keep telling that they would complain to someone, doing this or that, etc.. Page 1 of this thread mentions things like Solvit and Citizen Sign post. But what other options do we have? Maybe we need a compilation of contacte addresses and procedures?
I, too, would be interested in that.

Solvit and Signpost I know.

I'm now in the process of re-registering myself in the UK so I can actually pretend to have an MEP.

Stupid me for letting that go!

Cheers,

Ed

I think this link to the European Comission's webpage Enforcing your rights may be useful.

nrubdarb · Post by **nrubdarb** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 4:07 pm

Hi!

That's useful to know!

I did get a reply from Signpost, which stated what I basically knew. Most particularly - they maintain that the registration card should be recognized by the UK as waiving the visa requirement - which the UK ignores.

[quote]Article 5(2) of the EU Directive on residence rights (2004/38) of EU citizens
states that: â€œFamily members who are not nationals of a Member State shall only be required to have an entry visa in accordance with Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 or, where appropriate, with national law. For the purposes of this Directive, possession of the valid residence card referred to in Article 10 shall exempt such family members from the visa requirement.â€

charles4u · Post by **charles4u** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 8:12 pm

First... this is the best immigration discussion forum ever, I read all the discussions from everybody and its so interesting.
I fall into this category too, I am married to a Romanian citizen and she is presently working in UK, am still here in Romania waiting for my FAMILY MEMBER RESIDENCE CARD.

When I first got to Romania, after my marriage with my spouse she wanted me to come with her to the UK instead of waiting so long for the FAMILY RESIDENCE CARD and come back to apply for the card December period. So we applied for an EEA FAMILY PERMIT at the UK embassy here in Bucharest Romania but I was refused saying I was refused an American visa once, the age distance(10yrs older than me) and some other reasons I found not sensible cus she was asking for the phone bills of the calls we made with each other for 4 months b4 meeting in Malaysia after showing her(consular) couple of letters and emails we sent to each other.

Anyway I made an appeal and they just sent me my appeal as being recieved and will take almost 3 months b4 the hearing(29th sept). So I want to know if I can still re-apply again and what should I do and what other proves can I provide.

I read here about someone saying going direct to UK with the spouse without EEA FAMILY PERMIT because it the law when having a FAMILY RESIDENCE CARD u can go together or meet ur spouse in any EU country including UK. So maybe I can go with my wife without a visa and I can get it at the point of entry ...

Pls Kindly assist me on any infos...

charles4u · Post by **charles4u** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 8:07 am

XXXXXXX

charles4u · Post by **charles4u** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 7:00 pm

XXXXXXX

Richard66 · Post by **Richard66** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 10:13 am

I think the UK and ireland ought to be expelled from the EU and that UK citizens should be made to apply for visas in order to come to the Continent and that the procedure should be the same the UK and Ireland forces foreigners to follow in order to obtain a visa.

Maybe this way they will see sense.

isceon · Post by **isceon** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 7:12 pm

I agree fully.

djb123 · Post by **djb123** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 5:00 am

The Polish Embassy's website is now stating

If you are a spouse of the EU national (but not of the Polish citizen), please, note that, on the basis of Directive 2004/38/EC you do not need an entry visa to enter Poland if all of these three conditions are fulfilled:

1. You are married to an EU-citizen but not to a Polish citizen,

2. You are a holder of
-the British "Residence Card of a Family Member of an EEA National",
or
-the British "Limited leave to remain in the United Kingdom",
or
-the British "Indefinite leave to remain in the United Kingdom",

3. You are accompanied by your spouse (EU-national) when travelling to Poland.

This is the first time I've seen a visa issued by the UK being counted as the same as residence card. Does a non-EU spouse of a British Citizen with ILR really no longer need a Schengen visa to vist Poland?

Richard66 · Post by **Richard66** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:19 pm

This is logical, because a UK citizen that goes to Poland is exercising treaty rights (yes, travel for less than 3 months is exercising treaty rights too), the same as a German, whether he live in Germany or the UK.

As the spouse of a UK citizen is not issued with a residence card, but with an ILR or whatever, it is logical that this document should allow this spouse to enter Poland.

The right of free movement for Community citizens and their family members is not derived form a document, but from the very fact they are family members. Residence cards or visas only confirm this right, but never give rise to it.

DFDS. · Post by **DFDS.** » Sun May 24, 2009 7:44 pm

clairey wrote:http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... 5&start=40

my post at the bottom - Portuguese border official told my husband he didn't need a visa

Can the holder of a valid resident card, travel independently within the union member states, with out a visa isued by that particular state s/he is traveling to? This is one issue that has not yet come clear. Any light with quotations any where please?

charles4u · Post by **charles4u** » Mon May 25, 2009 7:59 am

DFDS. wrote:
clairey wrote:http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... 5&start=40

my post at the bottom - Portuguese border official told my husband he didn't need a visa

Can the holder of a valid resident card, travel independently within the union member states, with out a visa isued by that particular state s/he is traveling to? This is one issue that has not yet come clear. Any light with quotations any where please?

Only Schengen residence card is valid to travel independently within the Schengen states for max of 3 months which are also the EU states.

The EU residence is not valid for independently travel without visa within the EU state, Only family members can accompany or join there EU spouse with in need of visa.

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Mon May 25, 2009 1:59 pm

charles4u wrote:Only Schengen residence card is valid to travel independently within the Schengen states for max of 3 months which are also the EU states.

The EU residence is not valid for independently travel without visa within the EU state, Only family members can accompany or join there EU spouse with in need of visa.

Do you have sources to support either of these two statements?

charles4u · Post by **charles4u** » Mon May 25, 2009 3:42 pm

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:
charles4u wrote:Only Schengen residence card is valid to travel independently within the Schengen states for max of 3 months which are also the EU states.

The EU residence is not valid for independently travel without visa within the EU state, Only family members can accompany or join there EU spouse with in need of visa.
Do you have sources to support either of these two statements?

1 . http://ec.europa.eu/justice_home/fsj/fr ... tro_en.htm

2. Free movement following the abolition of internal border controls (Schengen cooperation)
The right to free movement was given a boost in 1985 when Germany, France and the Benelux countries ( Belgium, the Netherlands and Luxembourg) signed an intergovernmental agreement on gradually abolishing internal border checks, in the small Luxembourg border town of Schengen. The Schengen Agreement was followed in 1990 by the Schengen Convention, which finally came into force in 1995.

The Schengen Convention abolished controls at the internal borders between the signatories, harmonised controls at the external frontiers of the â€œSchengen areaâ€

Immigrationboards.com: Immigration, work visa and work permit discussion board

Directive 2004/38/EC thread

Could you please answer those questions:

A quetion re-phrasing,

Require urgent help, please !!!!!