NATURALISED BRITISH CITIZEN & DEPORTATION FROM UK

[allahrasool]

just a question for moderators :, considering current political climate , where people have been stripped of their citizenship.

does this mean , anyone who has done a crime and spent more then 1 year in prison , and has dual citizenship can be stripped off their british nationality. ( foreign nationals certainly get deported )

For example, the case of shamima begum ( although in her case , she never held another nationality, her father did ) i know her case was high profile and terrorism related but 2 days ago we had the 50 jamaicans deported ( i know foreign nationals , but some eligible to apply for naturalisation, still deported ) , seems like this threat of deportation is always hanging on naturalised british citizens head, who are citizens of another country too?

[secret.simon]

this threat of deportation is always hanging on naturalised british citizens head

It is certainly true of people who, either knowingly or unknowingly, have dual/multiple citizenship. That is a wider net than just naturalised or registered British citizens.

The Home Office tends to be aware of nationality law in some foreign countries (see this archive of Home Office documentation on Indian nationality law and Pakistani nationality law, for example) and can of course request the British Embassy in most countries for help clarifying nationality law in the nations that the embassies are stationed in.

The Home Secretary is also more likely to consider deportation nowadays, even in cases where acquisition of British citizenship led to a loss of the person's other nationalities, on the grounds that the initial grant of naturalisation was a nullity (never happened legally).

British Nationality Act 1981: Deprivation of citizenship

Deprivation and nullity of British citizenship: nationality policy guidance

Citizenship removal resulting in statelessness

Freemovement (2018 article): How is the government using its increased powers to strip British people of their citizenship?

some eligible to apply for naturalisation

if they have been convicted of serious crimes, they would not be eligible to apply for naturalisation because of the good character requirements.

As an aside, the UK is not the only major country to look at citizenship deprivation and deportation.

Australia has recently had a High Court case in that country on whether Aboriginals (who are the first inhabitants of that country and are highly unlikely to have any other citizenship) are aliens (foreigners) under Australian law and the Australian government is looking at legislating to overturn the court judgment.

India is currently undergoing political protests with regards to amendments to their citizenship laws about restricting access to citizenship based on the applicant's religion and also looking at developing a nationality register and deportation of illegal migrants.

In a sense, it is the resurgence of national borders and it would be interesting to see how the EU, at least part of whose purpose was to eliminate borders, will react to and work in a world with higher/stricter national borders.

[London22]

just a question for moderators :, considering current political climate , where people have been stripped of their citizenship.

does this mean , anyone who has done a crime and spent more then 1 year in prison , and has dual citizenship can be stripped off their british nationality. ( foreign nationals certainly get deported )

For example, the case of shamima begum ( although in her case , she never held another nationality, her father did ) i know her case was high profile and terrorism related but 2 days ago we had the 50 jamaicans deported ( i know foreign nationals , but some eligible to apply for naturalisation, still deported ) , seems like this threat of deportation is always hanging on naturalised british citizens head, who are citizens of another country too?

Current hostile environment is not even following any laws .As you mentioned Shamima ,she has been made stateless which is a serious violation of international law.People who commit crimes are in danger of deportations specially those with dual nationalities.The political scenario is so harsh on such people.

[Richard W]

does this mean , anyone who has done a crime and spent more then 1 year in prison , and has dual citizenship can be stripped off their british nationality. ( foreign nationals certainly get deported )

No, the meaning of 'unacceptable behaviour' does not appear to be wide enough. Rolf Harris remains British, and I see no evidence that a normal rapist would be vulnerable to loss of nationality either - unless he had concealed previous offences when applying for naturalisation. Organised gang rape is another matter - it's a 'serious organised crime'.

One of the judges at the SIAC (Justice Mitting, if my memory serves me right) has corrected a treasury counsel (a Mr Lam to be precise) who asserted that the same definition of 'conducive to the public good' applied for deportation and deprivation.

For example, the case of shamima begum ( although in her case , she never held another nationality, ...)

The court has determined that she was a Bangladeshi citizen at the time, even if she has never exercised that nationality. You should know better than to believe a Bangladeshi politician who doesn't want her admitted to his country.

[allahrasool]

No, the meaning of 'unacceptable behaviour' does not appear to be wide enough. Rolf Harris remains British, and I see no evidence that a normal rapist would be vulnerable to loss of nationality either - unless he had concealed previous offences when applying for naturalisation. Organised gang rape is another matter - it's a 'serious organised crime'.

brown organised gang rapes white girls _ deport them on dual nationality principle ,strip them of their british citizenship because that's SERIOUS ORGANISED CRIME -

brown teenage girl makes a grave and serious mistake , despite being born in the UK , despite never been to bangladesh , has never applied for bangladeshi id card , permit or passport , despite the other country declining her right to that country's nationality (just because her father was a citizen of that country) , just strip her of her only nationality , make her stateless ---- ( EU Countries took back their citizens coming back from syria , no one can ever defend shamima's evil trip to syria , she went away for an evil purpose , but we are talking about principle yes ? )

but white guy who moves to uk when he is 22 years old , rapes four underage white girls -and that in your eye and in the eyes of the law/society is a NORMAL RAPIST ( and is not considered an ORGANISED-SERIOUS crime committed over the years )

hats off to british justice system --- Institutional raicsmm at its best

[Richard W]

brown teenage girl makes a grave and serious mistake , despite being born in the UK , despite never been to bangladesh , has never applied for bangladeshi id card , permit or passport , despite the other country declining her right to that country's nationality (just because her father was a citizen of that country) , just strip her of her only nationality , make her stateless ---- ( EU Countries took back their citizens coming back from syria , no one can ever defend shamima's evil trip to syria , she went away for an evil purpose , but we are talking about principle yes ? )

What has Bangladesh actually done to explicitly deny her her rights as a Bangladeshi? Incidentally, are you sure she gets Bangladeshi citizenship from her father? I though the certain derivation was through her mother.

The deprivation process got under way with David Hicks, a white man from Australia.

Be careful with what you're saying - you're verging on 'unacceptable behaviour'!

[secret.simon]

and is not considered an ORGANISED-SERIOUS crime committed over the years

You have hit the nub of the definition. Organised crime requires an organisation, a group of people working together. A lone criminal, is by definition, not in an organisation and therefore not organised. It may be a serious crime, but not organised. Shamima Begum did leave the UK to join an organisation that was known to be hostile to the UK.

Here is an interesting article on UK and US approaches to ISIS returnees, which touches upon the difference in deprivation procedure between British citizens by naturalisation and other British citizens.

And here is an example just today of a European (Serbian) person's British citizenship being declared a nullity (which is different from deprivation), because the person may have falsified his identity, according to the Home Office.

Let's keep the topic respectable or the posts will be moved.

[allahrasool]

Be careful with what you're saying - you're verging on 'unacceptable behaviour'!

unacceptable behaviour to expose White privilege do you mean?

[allahrasool]

And here is an example just today of a European (Serbian) person's British citizenship being declared a nullity (which is different from deprivation), because the person may have falsified his identity, according to the Home Office.

Let's keep the topic respectable or the posts will be moved.

he falsified his identity , he is a naturalised citizen , so committed immigration offence to obtain british citizenship. his case is not same

[secret.simon]

he falsified his identity , he is a naturalised citizen , so committed immigration offence to obtain british citizenship. his case is not same

I'm not saying that it is the same case. I'm posting the information so that it is all in one place for future reference. There are many silent readers of these forums.

[AnotherUUID]

The case for deprivation, as it stands, is fairly problematic in my personal view and a lot needs to be done to make it very clear how and when it is used and, if ever, that the decision is fair and open to scrutiny.

For one, as @RichardW pointed out to me in a different thread, while it is indeed not that easy to lose your citizenship, it is considerably easier of you are a naturalised citizen. Irrespective of the clauses around the fact, this immediately introduces the notion of "2nd class citizenship" which is highly inappropriate. Least of all, this "2nd class citizenship" may be passed on to native born British kids of a naturalised parent if they happen to have a claim, even if never exercised, to another citizenship (e.g. by descent).

On a more important note, what is seriously worrying is the fact that citizenship deprivation is at the sole discretion of the Home Secretary and needs no judicial review, despite HO claiming that deprivation decisions are never taken lightly. On top of that, the right to appeal, which can at least properly go to court, cannot be easily exercised if the person was stripped of their citizenship while being abroad. At that point, they virtually have no rights.

If I read the BNA correctly, in order for the HO to not violate international laws on being stateless, they only need to be "satisfied" that the person will not remain stateless. As long as the HO can show that the person being deprived has claim to another citizenship, knowingly or not, the HO is free to deprive them of their citizenship. This is irrespective of the fact that the other country whose nationality the person being deprived may have a claim to may refuse to grant such citizenship on grounds similar to the good character requirement in their local laws, effectively leaving the person de-facto stateless while HO has seemingly not violated international rules.

Then there's the issue that citizenship deprivation puts forward a ridiculous precedent that a country's government (UK or otherwise) can simply wash their hands clean and not take responsibility for the punishment and proper rehabilitation of its own citizens which is, frankly, astonishing in the developed world.

To be clear, I am not completely against governments having the power to deprive people of their citizenship. Perhaps there are cases where exercising such power may be justified. But the whole process around it should be fair and open to scrutiny, irrespective of government claims that such decisions are never made lightly. The person's right to appeal should also be protected for a reasonable time (more than 14 days) irrespective of them being abroad or not.

[blondesafari]

No, the meaning of 'unacceptable behaviour' does not appear to be wide enough. Rolf Harris remains British, and I see no evidence that a normal rapist would be vulnerable to loss of nationality either - unless he had concealed previous offences when applying for naturalisation. Organised gang rape is another matter - it's a 'serious organised crime'.

brown organised gang rapes white girls _ deport them on dual nationality principle ,strip them of their british citizenship because that's SERIOUS ORGANISED CRIME -

brown teenage girl makes a grave and serious mistake , despite being born in the UK , despite never been to bangladesh , has never applied for bangladeshi id card , permit or passport , despite the other country declining her right to that country's nationality (just because her father was a citizen of that country) , just strip her of her only nationality , make her stateless ---- ( EU Countries took back their citizens coming back from syria , no one can ever defend shamima's evil trip to syria , she went away for an evil purpose , but we are talking about principle yes ? )

but white guy who moves to uk when he is 22 years old , rapes four underage white girls -and that in your eye and in the eyes of the law/society is a NORMAL RAPIST ( and is not considered an ORGANISED-SERIOUS crime committed over the years )

hats off to british justice system --- Institutional raicsmm at its best

Respectfully, bringing colour into the equation is unacceptable. There have been more white Romanian and Polish people deported than 'brown' in the instances you are quoting. If you don't want to be deported, respect your new country and don't commit crimes in the first place.

[allahrasool]

Respectfully, bringing colour into the equation is unacceptable. There have been more white Romanian and Polish people deported than 'brown' in the instances you are quoting. If you don't want to be deported, respect your new country and don't commit crimes in the first place.

*taken from sky news .. so dont take the word BLONDE used in it personally ....

Mr Corbyn asked of New York-born Mr Johnson: "If there was a case of a young white boy with blonde hair who later dabbled in Class A drugs and conspired with a friend to beat up a journalist, would he deport that boy?

"Or is it one rule for young black boys from the Caribbean and another for young white boys from the US?"

and for you kind information , those romanians didn't apply for British Nationality , they were living here under freedom of movement enjoyed by all citizens of EU.

[Richard W]

and for you kind information , those romanians didn't apply for British Nationality , they were living here under freedom of movement enjoyed by all citizens of EU.

The answer is that it's one rule for those who are Commonwealth citizens via a recent connection with the British Isles, and another for those who are not. The people being deported to Jamaica had. it seems, never been British.

As to Mr Johnson, one may wonder whether it was purely for tax reasons that he renounced his US citizenship. Some will claim that he has done far more harm to the UK than Shamima Begum.

[allahrasool]

As to Mr Johnson, one may wonder whether it was purely for tax reasons that he renounced his US citizenship. Some will claim that he has done far more harm to the UK than Shamima Begum.

Britain should definitely deport all foreign national who commit serious crimes and are sentenced to more than 12 months .. 100% fair policy . Every country has the right to protect its public from such foreign criminals.

but dont leave grey areas

if someone living in XYZ Country is entitled to british citizenship through his/her parents/grandparents but has never been to britain , has no connection to britain , does not speak the language , has never applied for British nationality , passport , or any form of ID. if that person does a serious crime in XYZ Country , are they going to deport this person to UK ? and is the UK government going to accept such a person ?

Double Standards ?


for Naturalised Citizens with dual nationality :-

i hope if someone of colour who has lived in the UK most of his life , went through proper channel to gain nationality , took an oath , pays taxes & has a family but ends up doing something seriously bad ( like Mr Harris ) i hope our government will also sentence such a person to whatever number of years and then rehabilitate him/her into society regardless of colour , religion and dual nationality of that person , just like in the case of Mr Harris ...


but then again , the grey areas are left for a reason ....

[London22]

As to Mr Johnson, one may wonder whether it was purely for tax reasons that he renounced his US citizenship. Some will claim that he has done far more harm to the UK than Shamima Begum.

Britain should definitely deport all foreign national who commit serious crimes and are sentenced to more than 12 months .. 100% fair policy . Every country has the right to protect its public from such foreign criminals.

but dont leave grey areas

if someone living in XYZ Country is entitled to british citizenship through his/her parents/grandparents but has never been to britain , has no connection to britain , does not speak the language , has never applied for British nationality , passport , or any form of ID. if that person does a serious crime in XYZ Country , are they going to deport this person to UK ? and is the UK government going to accept such a person ?

Double Standards ?


for Naturalised Citizens with dual nationality :-

i hope if someone of colour who has lived in the UK most of his life , went through proper channel to gain nationality , took an oath , pays taxes & has a family but ends up doing something seriously bad ( like Mr Harris ) i hope our government will also sentence such a person to whatever number of years and then rehabilitate him/her into society regardless of colour , religion and dual nationality of that person , just like in the case of Mr Harris ...


but then again , the grey areas are left for a reason ....

If someone lives in a western country &expects equality for being BAME ,they simply don't know truth,history ,capitalism&current out of control far right beloved.

[Richard W]

if someone living in XYZ Country is entitled to british citizenship through his/her parents/grandparents but has never been to britain , has no connection to britain , does not speak the language , has never applied for British nationality , passport , or any form of ID. if that person does a serious crime in XYZ Country , are they going to deport this person to UK ? and is the UK government going to accept such a person ?

The UK policy here may very well be "no passport, no entry".

I'm not sure what you mean by 'entitled to British citizenship'. If you mean entitled to registration as a British citizen, then until last year, committing a serious offence would nullify that entitlement. Those entitled to register despite committing a serious offence are those who would be British had British law not previously discriminated on the basis of sex and legitimacy. However, such people would not be British citizens until after an application for British citizenship had been made, so they would not be accepted. I would expect Australia to deport them to a country whose passport had been used for them.

The other possible category is illegitimate children whose British citizen fathers have not yet satisfied the SoS that they are the natural father. It is unclear whether such children are British through their father; I am very confident that "no passport, no entry" would also apply in such cases.

If the phrase 'entitled to British citizenship ... has never applied for a British ... passport' refers to those who have not themselves applied for a passport, then there seem to be examples amongst the British immigrants deported from Australia for criminality. Some of them do seem to drag the process out, such as Kelly Webb (https://theworldnews.net/uk-news/britis ... -from-jail), whose appeal is still being heard.

for Naturalised Citizens with dual nationality :-

i hope if someone of colour who has lived in the UK most of his life , went through proper channel to gain nationality , took an oath , pays taxes & has a family but ends up doing something seriously bad ( like Mr Harris ) i hope our government will also sentence such a person to whatever number of years and then rehabilitate him/her into society regardless of colour , religion and dual nationality of that person , just like in the case of Mr Harris ...

I don't understand the comparison to Rolf Harris. He was born a British subject and, from the inception of the categories, was automatically a Citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies (CUKC), an Australian citizen, a patrial CUKC and a British Citizen. Years ago, your hypothetical naturalised immigrant would have been deprived of British nationality if he had been convicted of a serious offence within five years of naturalisation. Nowadays, denaturalising mere criminals is unusual - it is gang members and the politically motivated who are at risk.

[allahrasool]

I'm not sure what you mean by 'entitled to British citizenship'. If you mean entitled to registration as a British citizen, then until last year, committing a serious offence would nullify that entitlement.

so UK Gov would not give its citizenship to someone who is entitled to register as a British citizen due to a serious crime.

then why would the UK Gov expect another country to entertain a request to accept such a serious criminal who is a British citizen even if this person was entitled to that country's nationality through any route.. After the serious crime committed this person does not meet the good character required to obtain that country's citizenship anymore . That country has no legal duty to that person.

so in principle , UK Gov will be making its citizen 'Stateless'.

( i am only talking about principle. As a British Born Citizen and holder of solely British Nationality, One should be sentenced in this country even if that sentence is life in prison without any chance to ever walk free again , the punishment should be carried out by UK Courts. Serious Criminals with dual nationality who are involved in organised gang crimes and stuff , deport them)

[Richard W]

I'm not sure what you mean by 'entitled to British citizenship'. If you mean entitled to registration as a British citizen, then until last year, committing a serious offence would nullify that entitlement.

so UK Gov would not give its citizenship to someone who is entitled to register as a British citizen due to a serious crime.

then why would the UK Gov expect another country to entertain a request to accept such a serious criminal who is a British citizen even if this person was entitled to that country's nationality through any route.. After the serious crime committed this person does not meet the good character required to obtain that country's citizenship anymore . That country has no legal duty to that person.

That's the difference between being a citizen and being entitled to become a citizen. For example, at least one British company has promised the USA that it will only release certain information to employees who are British single nationals. It therefore distinguishes employees who are entitled to Irish nationality from those who are also Irish nationals.

[Richard W]

then why would the UK Gov expect another country to entertain a request to accept such a serious criminal who is a British citizen even if this person was entitled to that country's nationality through any route.. After the serious crime committed this person does not meet the good character required to obtain that country's citizenship anymore . That country has no legal duty to that person.

To be clear, the only possible situation I can think of where a British citizen would knowingly be deported is as the family member of someone else being deported, and I am not sure that that would happen. Said citizen would still, unless subject to a temporary exclusion order, be permitted to paddle ashore other than at a port.

I do not believe the UK government would knowingly deport someone to a country where he was merely entitled to nationality, as opposed to actually being a national. Do you have any examples to the contrary?

As far as I am aware, if someone who is merely entitled to Irish citizenship insistently applied for an Irish passport, he would become an Irish citizen, regardless of whether he was of good character.

[secret.simon]

so UK Gov would not give its citizenship to someone who is entitled to register as a British citizen due to a serious crime.

Most countries around the world, certainly most developed countries, have some form of "good character" requirement for people who are not already citizens to acquire citizenship. So serial or dangerous criminals may find it hard to acquire citizenship.

why would the UK Gov expect another country to entertain a request to accept such a serious criminal who is a British citizen even if this person was entitled to that country's nationality through any route.. After the serious crime committed this person does not meet the good character required to obtain that country's citizenship anymore .

I think that you are confusing entitlement to a citizenship with already having citizenship. Having the citizenship of a country is determined by the national laws of that country and can persist in spite of several generations outside that country.

So, for instance, Poland regards all people born of Polish descent, no matter how many generations earlier, as Polish citizens and used to impose compulsory military service requirements on them even if they were not aware that they were dual Polish-other citizens and just on a short trip to Poland. That is why, for instance, in the midst of the Cold War, the US had to negotiate special provisions with Poland that allowed US citizens of Polish descent to not be treated as Polish citizens when visiting Poland. (Wikipedia article on Polish nationality law)

Similarly Chinese nationality law and Italian nationality law allow citizenships to be transmitted over multiple generations abroad, thus conferring citizenship on people who may not be aware of it and who may never exercise it.

In these cases, the relevant people (of Polish, Italian or Chinese descent) are already citizens of their relevant countries, not merely entitled to it, even if they do not have a passport of that country.

And as I had mentioned above, the Home Office is generally aware of the citizenship laws of most major countries and can request the British Embassy in that country for assistance in clarifying the nationality law of that country.

On a different note, the BBC posted a profile of one of the 17 who were deported to Jamaica on Tuesday. It seems that he was convicted 10 times for a total of 22 offences, including burglary.

[allahrasool]

Secret.Simon

1-
Okay i get you now . but if a British born citizen who is a serious criminal and is already citizen of another country by descent , ( Poland , Italy or china in this example) , what legal & moral responsibility does that government have to grant entry to such a person , if UK Gov wants to deport this citizen of it to them. Wouldn't the said country's government challenge in International Court ,The said person did not commit the crime in that country , never visited the country , has no ties to it anymore other than the right to its citizenship by descent then why should they admit such a serious criminal? and puts it public into danger.

when the country where this person was born and is a citizenship of , is paying taxes in etc etc , is not taking any responsibility for this person.

2-
Any foreign national who is a serious criminal and sentenced to more than 12 months , should be deported ... 100% fair policy for the safety of British citizens.

[Richard W]

but if a British born citizen who is a serious criminal and is already citizen of another country by descent , ( Poland , Italy or china in this example) , what legal & moral responsibility does that government have to grant entry to such a person , if UK Gov wants to deport this citizen of it to them. Wouldn't the said country's government challenge in International Court ,The said person did not commit the crime in that country , never visited the country , has no ties to it anymore other than the right to its citizenship by descent then why should they admit such a serious criminal? and puts it public into danger.

Tricks like refusal to admit may be used, but many countries have laws allowing their citizens to be admitted. The moral defence for an admitting government is that the person is one of their citizens.

I for one feel that stripping a British citizen by birth who has always been British of nationality and deporting him is wrong. My feelings have not helped white boy Jack Letts.

[vinny]

See also Is the UK right to adopt 2 tier citizenship system.

[allahrasool]

Tricks like refusal to admit may be used, but many countries have laws allowing their citizens to be admitted. The moral defence for an admitting government is that the person is one of their citizens.

I for one feel that stripping a British citizen by birth who has always been British of nationality and deporting him is wrong. My feelings have not helped white boy Jack Letts.

Again , in case mentioned above the person was born in the UK , lived in the UK , was radicalized within the UK . But British Government expects another Government to take him instead. By stripping his nationality , leaving Canada responsible for any diplomatic assistance Letts need.

i would say , UK Gov is playing tricks and not the other way round ...