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Which Form to apply for Entry re Access to a British Child ?

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jonblane
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Which Form to apply for Entry re Access to a British Child ?

Post by jonblane » Sat Aug 30, 2008 12:12 am

My ( UK national) child was born in UK to a Russian mother currently in UK on a student visa. I am UK national by birth. We are not intending civil partnership or marriage.

For my child's mother to obtain entry under Para 247 she has to produce ( as I understand it this can only be on arrival in UK from outside the UK)

## a valid United Kingdom entry clearance for entry in this capacity##

My questions are: 1] What is the correct Form with which to request this 'Valid Entry Clearance' ( particularly as she will want the one which does allow work ) ? and

2] Can this Valid Entry Clearance be requested at any UK Embassy or Consulate anywhere in the world or does it have to be requested in the home country of the mother ?

3] Is such an Entry Clearance ( assuming all the paperwork is correctly produced ) normally issued on the date of application or if not how long is it likely to take ?

4] If all the paperwork listed in Para 247 is correctly produced to the Embassy - is there any discretion to refuse the Valid Entry Clearance and if so on what grounds might this occur ?

5] is the issue complicated at all by the prior existence of a student visa ?

Many thanks in advance for any useful information you can provide :)

tasha75
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Re: Which Form to apply for Entry re Access to a British Chi

Post by tasha75 » Sat Aug 30, 2008 6:23 pm

I don't know if you've seen these topics, they have is a bit of info on this subject. Also, if you search for posts by user Twin, you might find some additional info.
http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... highlight=
http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... highlight=
Do not live your life in fear.

jonblane
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Post by jonblane » Sat Aug 30, 2008 7:36 pm

Thank you but actually I had already read both those threads / links and they do not in fact directly answer any of the questions I posed.

Plus they date from last year so it may be that someone has had more recent experience or otherwise has the specific knowledge we need. :)

tasha75
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Re: Which Form to apply for Entry re Access to a British Chi

Post by tasha75 » Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:49 am

jonblane wrote: My questions are: 1] What is the correct Form with which to request this 'Valid Entry Clearance' ( particularly as she will want the one which does allow work ) ?

Taken from another forum:
I received a response to my email from UKvisas this afternoon and it appears that the VAF1 form is the correct form.

-----Original Message-----
From: PublicVisaEnqs@fco.gov.uk
To: ******@aol.com
Sent: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 13:35
Subject: RE: Immigration Rule Paragraph 246

Form VAF 1. It is the High Commission who will refer the application to NCC2.


2] Can this Valid Entry Clearance be requested at any UK Embassy or Consulate anywhere in the world or does it have to be requested in the home country of the mother ?
As with other visas, I would think it can be requested anywhere in the world where the applicant legally resides.
3] Is such an Entry Clearance ( assuming all the paperwork is correctly produced ) normally issued on the date of application or if not how long is it likely to take ?
It will not be issued on the same day, as all applications of this type have to be referred to the Home Office, department NCC2. (dunno how long it could take)

10.9 - Exercising right of access to a child resident in the United Kingdom
The criteria for admission in this capacity are very strictly drawn and all applications are mandatory referrals to:
NCC2

http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/en/ecg/chapte ... int%20nine
4] If all the paperwork listed in Para 247 is correctly produced to the Embassy - is there any discretion to refuse the Valid Entry Clearance and if so on what grounds might this occur ?
Again from another forum,
They shouldn't refuse as the decision isn't made by the British embassy - it is made by the home office.

The entry clearance officer would have to send the application to tNCC2 department of the UKBA in the UK who are specialists in human rights and out of the rules application. They make an informed decision as opposed to the ECO.


Here's the topic from June-July of this year. There aren't many applications under this rule, so I doubt you'll find lots of recent posts.
http://www.ukresident.com/forums/index. ... 72532&st=0
HTH
Do not live your life in fear.

jonblane
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Post by jonblane » Sun Aug 31, 2008 10:57 am

Thank you kindly for this detail.

Can you tell me what NCC2 stands for ?

Is it a requirement that one RESIDES in the country in which one submits the application? Is it not sufficient that one is physically present in said country ?

Ie could it not just be a country ( such as France ) easy to visit from the UK ?

And/or - if the Consulate does not make a decision but instead all the Consulate does is to refer the paperwork to 'NCC2' - is it not possible to submit such paperwork directly to NCC2 from within the UK ( whilst still lawfully resident on a student visa ) ?

If so, what is the specific address to which one would submit the paperwork and how does one obtain the correct Form on which to submit it ?
:)

vinny
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Post by vinny » Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:47 pm

jonblane wrote:Can you tell me what NCC2 stands for ?
25.3 - Who to refer/defer to wrote:NON CHARGED CASEWORK 2 (NCC2) - All cases where a decision is to be made outside the Immigration Rules and those mandatory referrals noted in 25.3.
This is not intended to be legal or professional advice in any jurisdiction. Please click on any given links for further information. Refer to the source of any quotes.
We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children.

tasha75
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Post by tasha75 » Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:58 pm

jonblane wrote: Can you tell me what NCC2 stands for ?
NON CHARGED CASEWORK 2 (NCC2) - All cases where a decision is to be made outside the Immigration Rules and those mandatory referrals noted in 25.3.
http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/en/ecg/chapter25/

And/or - if the Consulate does not make a decision but instead all the Consulate does is to refer the paperwork to 'NCC2' - is it not possible to submit such paperwork directly to NCC2 from within the UK ( whilst still lawfully resident on a student visa ) ?
According to this, it doesn't seems so:

LEAVE TO REMAIN AS A PERSON EXERCISING RIGHTS OF ACCESS
The requirements to be met by a person seeking leave to remain in order to exercise access rights are set out in Paragraph 248A-F in Statement of Changes to Immigration Rules Cm4851 Sept 2000 and must be referred to when reading the following advice.
3.1. Key points
....................

(vii) the applicant has limited leave to remain in the United Kingdom as the spouse or unmarried partner of a person present and settled in the United Kingdom who is the other parent of the child;

http://www.bia.homeoffice.gov.uk/siteco ... iew=Binary

Do you not qualify as unmarried partners (lived together for 2 years)?




I don't know much about this rule (right of access to a child), only what I read on these two forums. You'd better ask guys in that topic, as they are planning on applying in this category and so have researched it thoroughly. Especially Twin - she's a guru when it comes to the right of access.
Do not live your life in fear.

jonblane
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Post by jonblane » Sun Aug 31, 2008 1:31 pm

No - this is the whole point which makes my child's mother's case different from those I keep being referred to: we are not now and have no intention of becoming civil partners or married. We are just friends who have a child together.


So my questions are all about the rules ( and especially the specific procedures / Forms / Addresses to write to etc ) which need to be followed. :)

Twin
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Post by Twin » Sun Aug 31, 2008 5:32 pm

If your the other parent is legally resident in France, then by all means, she can make the application from there, otherwise, she'd have to return to her country to apply under paragraph 246.

As a student, she can't make the application from within the UK as she wasn't admitted into the country as a spouse or unmarried partner which would have enabled her apply under paragraph 248 in country.

NCC2 department isn't based in consulate offices but the UK. The ECO cannot make a decision on this category visa as it's very stringent and requires delicate consideration. International and european conventions are involved in this kind of category and as such requires those who know their onions in these aspects.

You ask if these documents cannot just be forwarded directly unto the relevant department? Well, for one, if it was that easy, then no one would have to leave the country to make the application. A very importatant aspect of this visa is that the applicant is present in the country of origin as this ensure that there is no queue jumping. This is why even though a lot of applications can be won under human rights in country, the AIT still in fairness requires applicants to return home to make entry clearance application.

Paragraph 248 does not only ask you to be lawfully resident, but lawfully resident under spousal visa or unmarried partner visa. Student visa would not cut it.

246 is the only route to go for your partner and that is out of country.

NCC2 does not deal direct with the public. They deal with referred cases from ECOs.
jonblane wrote:Thank you kindly for this detail.

Can you tell me what NCC2 stands for ?

Is it a requirement that one RESIDES in the country in which one submits the application? Is it not sufficient that one is physically present in said country ?

Ie could it not just be a country ( such as France ) easy to visit from the UK ?

And/or - if the Consulate does not make a decision but instead all the Consulate does is to refer the paperwork to 'NCC2' - is it not possible to submit such paperwork directly to NCC2 from within the UK ( whilst still lawfully resident on a student visa ) ?

If so, what is the specific address to which one would submit the paperwork and how does one obtain the correct Form on which to submit it ?
:)

Twin
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Post by Twin » Sun Aug 31, 2008 5:35 pm

If you are willing to marry her which could enable her switch to a spousal visa, then she might be able to switch to parents with access rights category.

However, you said this is not an option so out of country it is. If she does decide to take this route, then the form to complete is VAF1.

Point to note: Liam 'lovely' Bryne says there is a consultation out there regarding this visa (albeit, nowhere to be found). Knowing his attitude to immigrants, I think he has seen that there is a loop hole that enables immigrants to exercise their rights so he might be looking to either scrap it soon or make it tighter.

If you wish to go this route, then now might be the time to do it before he pulls a fast one, afterall he has pulled a fast one on the Retired persons visa of independent means and it is scrapped but not many people know about it yet and this category still appears in the immigration rules. Sick man (sorry I let out my frustration :D )!

All the best.

jonblane
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Post by jonblane » Sun Aug 31, 2008 6:16 pm

Thanks for this.

Ok first for info only what is ' ECO ' ?.

Second, accepting the proposition that she must apply from outside the United Kingdom, which Rule specifies that this non-UK country must be her 'home' country or one in which she 'resides' ?

And if the latter - what and where is the definition of 'resides' ? Ie, if she takes a trip using a Schengen visa from the UK to France she will be - for the duration of the trip - 'residing' in France, n'est-ce pas ?

And does this Form by the way require the applicant to state where she 'resides' ? If so - is not the true answer - 'the UK - where I am a student on a student visa' ? And does that cause a problem ?


By the way, I don't follow the logic that only applications from outside the UK avoid the sin of queue - jumping ? Surely the 'queue' consists of a pile of applications in one or more In-Trays in the relevant department of the Home Office, and whether those applications arrive at the bottom of that In-Tray from an UK Embassy abroad, or from a Post Office in Much-Immigrating-in-the-Marsh doesn't seem to me to affect where in the queue it is .

But - once in the queue - how long roughly do the applications take to progress ?

Twin
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Post by Twin » Sun Aug 31, 2008 10:41 pm

Ok first for info only what is ' ECO ' ?.
Entry clearance Officer.
Second, accepting the proposition that she must apply from outside the United Kingdom, which Rule specifies that this non-UK country must be her 'home' country or one in which she 'resides' ?
How did she obtain entry clearance for her student visa? From where did she obtain it? My presumption is that this was obtained in her home country because she is legally resident there? Okay, if she obtained it from say France, she must have been legally resident there in one category visa or the other I would presume.

To directly answer your question, there is no rule written in black ink. You might be willing to take up a legal challenge and argue this with the secretary of state if you so wish but I personally don't think it would take you far.
And if the latter - what and where is the definition of 'resides' ? Ie, if she takes a trip using a Schengen visa from the UK to France she will be - for the duration of the trip - 'residing' in France, n'est-ce pas ?
Thank goodness for google, you'll be amazed at fountain of infomation out there. It's just a click away.

Resident in the UK means (i think) - not having immigration restriction to your length of stay. An ILR holder or a British resident for example. Being in possession of a schengen visa does not count as there is a limit to your length of stay. So that wouldn't qualify.
By the way, I don't follow the logic that only applications from outside the UK avoid the sin of queue - jumping ? Surely the 'queue' consists of a pile of applications in one or more In-Trays in the relevant department of the Home Office, and whether those applications arrive at the bottom of that In-Tray from an UK Embassy abroad, or from a Post Office in Much-Immigrating-in-the-Marsh doesn't seem to me to affect where in the queue it is .


Misplaced argument. I would rather take that up with the AIT or the UKBA. Chikwamba case law does seem to agree with you to an extent, though.

Personally, I think it's queue jumping when an illegal immigrant with no compassionate circumstance would rather twist the arm of the home office to grant them leave to stay(My own personal opinion).

Now, if the home office clearly states in it's rule that you will not meet the requirement of a category if you are not in possession of either a spousal visa or an unmarried partner's visa - I think they have set their parameters. It is now your prerogative if you would rather fight them to say they are unfair. It is queue jumping if you already know the rules but trying to circumvent it.

Going to Timbuktu on Schengen visa would not help you. It's just so cut and dry. Follow the rules and you have a better leverage for argument in court.
But - once in the queue - how long roughly do the applications take to progress ?
Legal queue - ie returning to home country to apply for entry clearance, you mean? If so, there is a service level agreement of 21 days. I personally would estimate 4 weeks.

In country applications ie. 248 should be around 4 weeks too but don't quote me on that.

vinny
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Post by vinny » Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:00 am

jonblane wrote:And if the latter - what and where is the definition of 'resides' ? Ie, if she takes a trip using a Schengen visa from the UK to France she will be - for the duration of the trip - 'residing' in France, n'est-ce pas ?
See also 8.1 - To which Post should an applicant apply and Section 4 - Entry Clearance (7.2. Definition of "living").
This is not intended to be legal or professional advice in any jurisdiction. Please click on any given links for further information. Refer to the source of any quotes.
We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children.

Twin
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Post by Twin » Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:28 pm

vinny wrote:
jonblane wrote:And if the latter - what and where is the definition of 'resides' ? Ie, if she takes a trip using a Schengen visa from the UK to France she will be - for the duration of the trip - 'residing' in France, n'est-ce pas ?
See also 8.1 - To which Post should an applicant apply and Section 4 - Entry Clearance (7.2. Definition of "living").
Even better! There is a rule written in black ink.

Actually, I just found a loophole (well not really). Since the Rights of Access visa is in the visit category, then you might just get away with applying from France???

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