Spouses of Irish Citizens get the Worst Deal

[Ako Dong]

HI
Because I am Irish (BTW Ireland is in the EU) my wife does not qualify for EU treaty rights and in turn an EU4FAM. She has instead got a Stamp 4.
The stamp 4 does not allow her to visit other EU countries without a VISA.

We want to go to South Spain next month and Barcelona for a weekend after Christmas. We also intended to go to Paris for weekend in the spring.

The Spanish Embassy said she would need a Schengen Visa, or get an EU4FAM (impossible to get if spouse of Irish citizen and living in Ireland).
They also told us she would have to apply for a separate visa for each of these visits. Thats 3 full passport pages alone.

To add insult to injury, we had to go for an interview in the Spanish Embasy in Dublin. We applied on the 7th of July and got an appointment on the 11th August.

We had the interview on that date, and were told we would have word in about a week. Today they rang (some seven weeks after application) and said I needed to give a date of travel.
As I broke my foot last week I am unable to go for at least 5 more weeks.

If I was non-Irish EU, she could travel Visa Free with an EU4FAM

AkoDong

[Fionn]

You should apply for German or French citizenship..The processing time will probably be faster than getting a visa for your wife..and she will be able to travel without any problems

[Ako Dong]

You should apply for German or French citizenship..The processing time will probably be faster than getting a visa for your wife..and she will be able to travel without any problems

???
Citizenship?
We want to go on holiday

The point I am trying to make is that other countries only recognize EU4FAM and they think that Spouses of Irish citizens get these too. They do not realize that the GNIB give stamp4 residence cards to Spouses of Irish citizens.

[Fionn]

Just joking

[HOTSPURS]

We had the interview on that date, and were told we would have word in about a week. Today they rang (some seven weeks after application) and said I needed to give a date of travel.
As I broke my foot last week I am unable to go for at least 5 more weeks.

If I was non-Irish EU, she could travel Visa Free with an EU4FAM

AkoDong

The only discount you'll get is the Schengen Visa fees Waiver!! What a way to treat sons of the State ! The proof of rount-trip ticket, hotel bookings etc., really discourages Non-Eu nationals like us..not to mention the 100 Euro Visa fees for Multiple-entry Schengen Visa.

[ca.funke]

Hi AkoDong,

you have 2 options:

1. If you "excercise treaty rights" elsewhere and subsequently return to Ireland, you must be treated here as an EU-foreigner. (Isn't that nice?) You can then get the 4EUFam card.

2. When applying for a visa you may not be asked for any supplementary documentation. All you must provide is 2 passports and your marriage certificate.

If necessary I can cite the relevant paragraphs of 2004/38/EC which stipulate #2, #1 is deducted from case-law, and I'm still trynig to fully understand it.

Just to raise awareness: Ireland and the UK's refusal to fully join Schengen is definetely causing lots of hassle and inconvenience. I wonder about the advantages of the same...

Irish people should protest to be fully included into the Schengen agreement!!

For practical matters I advise you to contact several Schengen-embassies, innocently ask how they deal with this situation, adn apply for the Visa where you get the best and easiest deal...

[Ben]

OP, have you any friends or family in Northern Ireland?

[ashimashi]

OP:

1. They are not allowed to ask for any extra documentations other than your passports and marriage cert - they usually ask for travel dates too, but you can make anything up... Ask for a 6 month multiple entry, make up a second trip too!

2. AFAIK schengen regulation requires your visa to be issues by the FIRST country you're planning to go to. i.e. if you want to go to Spain, France and Italy in that order you're not allowed to get your visa from France ... you HAVE TO go to Spain. However: if they are not allowed to ask for proof of travel / accomidation booking, how can they prove that?! Unless the immigration officer in the airport of your arrival scrutinizes your passport and finds that there isn't s a spanish stamp there. So there, even Schengen is a right mess...


benifa, how would that help. I do have relatives in NI for one

[Ben]

benifa, how would that help. I do have relatives in NI for one

It would help because the OP could consider becoming "resident" in Northern Ireland, obtain a UK Residence Card for his spouse (issued in accordance with Directive 2004/38/EC), then "return" to ROI and be eligible for treatment under Surinder Singh conditions, as pointed out by ca.funke.

However, what might be easier (or then again, might not be), also as pointed out by ca.funke, is for the OP to get the Schengen visa for his spouse (just this once), and take their vacation to the Schengen area. During their visit to the Schengen area, the OP will be exercising EU Treaty rights, since he will be resident in another Member State on a self-sufficient basis. In accordance with the Surinder Singh ruling, upon his return to Ireland, the OP, together with his non-EU spouse, will be eligible for treatment under EU law, and not Irish law. Hence eligibility to submit an application for a Residence Card on form EU1, and be issued a Stamp 4EAFam Residence Card. No more Schengen visas.

[ants4chat]

Does that mean when I get married & if I want to stay in Ireland getting a stamp 4 in my passport. It puts travel restrictions on me??! As a Canadian I don't need visas to visa Europe but as a spouse to an Irish citizen I get penalized?!

[Ben]

Does that mean when I get married & if I want to stay in Ireland getting a stamp 4 in my passport. It puts travel restrictions on me??! As a Canadian I don't need visas to visa Europe but as a spouse to an Irish citizen I get penalized?!

No. Canadian citizens don't need visit visas to EU countries, whether married to an Irish citizen or not.

[flyboy]

[/quote]

During their visit to the Schengen area, the OP will be exercising EU Treaty rights, since he will be resident in another Member State on a self-sufficient basis. In accordance with the Surinder Singh ruling, upon his return to Ireland, the OP, together with his non-EU spouse, will be eligible for treatment under EU law, and not Irish law.[/quote]

Sounds to good to be true.If that is the case then all EU citizens travelling with their non EU family members visiting in a member state other than their own can apply under european law instead of their national law.
If i am not mistaken, one has to be exercising an economic treaty right or be self employed in another member state , to benefit from the Surinder Sing ruling. Can anyone shed light on this?

[Ben]

..If i am not mistaken, one has to be exercising an economic treaty right or be self employed in another member state , to benefit from the Surinder Sing ruling. Can anyone shed light on this?

You are absolutely correct. My mistake. Apologies. The ECJ ruling on the Surinder Singh case did indeed state that the EU citizen must have been exercising "a Treaty right in an economic capacity".

Sorry guys.

[jack_in_the box]

It's totally normal for your spouse not to be able to travel on an EU1 spousal visa. You're lucky that she gets er stamp 4. Spouses of other EU members haven't been getting any stamp 4 at all....So count your lucky stars.
When you travel you need to travel by nationality/passport, so the country you're going to can't allow somebody in on a stamp 4 if they require a visa to be there.

[ca.funke]

...so the country you're going to can't allow somebody in on a stamp 4 if they require a visa to be there...

They "can" do what they like. (With the exception that "Schengen" should force all Schengen-countries into a uniform decision, which sometimes isn't even the case)

Bulgaria, for example, considers all permanent residence permits issued by any EU-state as good for entry into Bulgaria. This includes "Stamp 4" issued by Ireland.

[lizalahive]

Let's stick to the original post shall we. Irish citizens and non eu spouses.

I am in the same boat as the OP. And i don't know why more irish men/women are not kicking up a fuss. I see alot of non eu women or men married to irish citizens. In Boards.ie i started a thread, and an obnoxious moderator banned me. Now how is that for ignorance. I had mentioned Ryanair were dearly beloved, only allowing european citizens to check in online.

We were previously stopped in the UK, ASKED FOR A TRANSIT VISA even though we were just getting a flight connection back to my homeland!( not staying ). In ASmsterdam we had a 5 hour layover before flying to Asia, yet the officials would not leave my wife go into the city with me, thus we stayed in the airport. I am sure this is just the start. Point blank refusals for holiday entries will be denied without visas.

We must apply for visas for alot of countries, and also every year apply for a multiple re entry visa to come back to Ireland. Eu Citizens with non Eu spouses with 4EUFAM can travel to most european countries bar a couple, and can also re enter Ireland without re entry visa applications no questioNS asked, but granted had to fight their rights lately.

Granted again, that 4EUFAM is not automatic, but then again, my wife was refused STAMP 4 as well. Just bugger them thats all, and you win.

The 4EUFAM is the exact same card as stamp 4, allowing one year residency at a time, thus we Irish citizens should be treated the same. I welcome the petition to the European Partliament to address this matter, but maybe there is something i can do in meantime, at home.