UK (treaty rights) family travelling to UK without EEA FP

[Richard66]

I would be grateful for your opinions on the following:

Information:

1) UK citizen (I) exercising treaty rights in Italy since October 2007 in possession of Italian Residence Card to prove it (reason of stay on the card: employed) ;

2) Wife Russian in possession of Italian Residence Card (reason of stay: family, married to EEA citizen Richard66);

3) Marriage certificate deposited at the General Registry Office in the UK and in possession of a copy issued by the same;

4) With a letter from the European Commission saying family members accompanying or joining the EEA citizen are not required to have a visa if in possession of a residence card as a family member issued by any EEA state (written in October 2007);

5) With a letter written by the British Embassy in Rome saying that if my wife arrives at a UK port of entry, together with me or joining me, and can prove this relationship, her entry will not be denied (also written in October 2007);

6) Italian public health insurance valid over all the EEA.

7) travel to the UK in May 2009.

That it is a visit is immaterial, as now the UK accepts that UK citizens exercising treaty rights may also visit the UK.

Questions (already hinted at in other topics):

1) Will this be proof enough to the Stupid, to Eurostar or to the ferries that entry will not be denied and that travel documents are in order?

2) How will the Immigration Officers react to this?

PS. We might also be taking our baby, but this we still do not know, as it is not even born yet. Or maybe our complaint will already have been examined by the European Court of Justice and decided in our favour.

[thsths]

1) Will this be proof enough to the Stupid, to Eurostar or to the ferries that entry will not be denied and that travel documents are in order?

It may or may not work. There are different reports on this. Of course legally they have to let you board.

2) How will the Immigration Officers react to this?

Did you have an application refused? That could cause trouble, because it should show up on the computer system. Otherwise it should be ok.

[John]

Will this be proof enough to the Stupid, to Eurostar or to the ferries that entry will not be denied and that travel documents are in order?

This is the important question! Well certainly as regards Stupid ... will they let her board?

As regards Eurostar, or some ferries, the immigration controls are now juxtaposed, so the UK immigration is in France. If she gets past that then there is no immigration to deal with in the UK.

[Richard66]

Joelondon, I think your post got into mine by mistake! Maybe you have better check?

Thank you, John and Thsths. It seems then there is proof enough entry would not be denied, so I would have a case against any airline that refuses boarding.

We never made it to the Immigration Officer, so no entry was ever denied.

I think, to be even safer, I will take copies of Directive 2004/38 and the Immigration (EEA Regulations) also

I can get an apostille on our (in English) marriage certificate (that makes it valid in the UK).

I wonder if a certified translation of our residence cards would be something to do also?

Besides the principle thing, I am doing this without the EEA FP because I am now known at the Embassy in Rome and I am afraid they might create trouble.

[UKBAbble]

It is a commercial decision for the Stupid as to whether they would carry or not. And tle letter from the British Embassy in Rome is no guarantee as there are circumstances in which EU family members are refused entry. A visa officer or even a Consul General has no power to direct an immigration officer.

[John]

UKBAbble, good point.

For that reason it might be a better idea for the OP to make their way to Paris or Brussels, and then use the juxtaposed UK immigration controls, before boarding the train to London.

By definition, once past those juxtaposed controls, there is clearly not a problem actually boarding the train.

[joelondon]

Joelondon, I think your post got into mine by mistake! Maybe you have better check?

Thank you, John and Thsths. It seems then there is proof enough entry would not be denied, so I would have a case against any airline that refuses boarding.

We never made it to the Immigration Officer, so no entry was ever denied.

I think, to be even safer, I will take copies of Directive 2004/38 and the Immigration (EEA Regulations) also

I can get an apostille on our (in English) marriage certificate (that makes it valid in the UK).

I wonder if a certified translation of our residence cards would be something to do also?

Besides the principle thing, I am doing this without the EEA FP because I am now known at the Embassy in Rome and I am afraid they might create trouble.

sorry for the post Richard
i have a better idea for you and 100% works if u want to make it to the immigration officer and get over the checking point , first of all what u can do ...if u can fly with british airways or air iberia ,they have auto chekcing wich mean u can have your boarding card even before and u dont have to go to the checking u can just pass the police with the online checking ,and u will have a boarding card wich u can print it , here in madrid in barajas air port we the auto checking decks ,and again with iberia u can get your boarding card online , so here u have a chance to make it to the imigration officer , think about it and let me know what u think ...hope to hear from you soon .good luck and keep me update .

[John]

here in madrid in barajas air port we the auto checking decks ,and again with iberia u can get your boarding card online

OK, so you can get your boarding pass, and proceed to get airside, but aren't the boarding cards and passports checked immediately before you get on to the aircraft?

[joelondon]

here in madrid in barajas air port we the auto checking decks ,and again with iberia u can get your boarding card online

OK, so you can get your boarding pass, and proceed to get airside, but aren't the boarding cards and passports checked immediately before you get on to the aircraft?

there is a police check just before borading mean near the gate...so if he make it with the immigration ,he will make then with the airline stuff becoz the immigration control in madrid barajas is by every gate ... i work in the airport so i know this stuff .

[UKBAbble]

Britsh Airways have "approved gate check" status which means that they have to be extra vigilant in cheecking that visa nationals have the appropriate visa before boarding flights to the UK.

[Richard66]

And the letter from the British Embassy in Rome is no guarantee as there are circumstances in which EU family members are refused entry. A visa officer or even a Consul General has no power to direct an immigration officer.

Actually, I just checked: it is not a letter, it is an e-mail, but I have sheafs of correspondence with the same person on the same subject.

I do not think this is a point, because, even a non-visa national could be denied entry. How does the airline know that? Will they just deny boarding to all non EEA and Swiss citizens? It seems to me that if an airline does not consider what a visa officer says (backed by the law) is asking for it.

Thanks, Joelondon! I'll conisider it!

Now, what will make it even better is that we shall probably have a baby with us, who, for reasons I shall not explain here, will be Brazilian; ergo, will need no EEA FP. The UK citizen and his son may pass, while the baby's mother, a Russian, will be stopped.

We are considering the train or the ferry: that way we can visit my cousins in Paris!

[Richard66]

This is the e-mail I received from Rome:

Dear Mr Richard66

With reference to your earlier correspondence I am now able to give you a substantive reply.

As you know I have consulted with colleagues in UKvisas and BIA. They have agreed that, as you are a UK national exercising your Treaty rights in Italy, you are entitled to bring your spouse back to the UK under EC law in accordance with Regulation 9 of the EEA Regulations. Your wife can therefore apply for an EEA family permit free of charge to confirm this right.

Your wife will need an EEA family permit in order to enter the UK - an Italian residence card is not acceptable for that purpose. Our position is that she has to have either a family permit or a residence card issued by the relevant UK authorities to qualify for admission. We note your interpretation of Article 5(2) of Directive 2004/38/EC. However, this is not our interpretation of that Article. We do not interpret Article 5(2) as providing for the mutual recognition of residence cards between Member States. Provision is made under the Schengen acquis for the mutual recognition of residence permits. We do not, however, participate in those parts of the Schengen arrangements and would be concerned at having to recognise residence permits/cards issued by other Member States in the absence of any agreement on the format of such permits/cards.

If a family member of an EEA national were to arrive at port without an EEA family permit, they would still be allowed entry if they could prove to the Immigration Officer that they were the family member of an EEA national with a right to reside in the UK. However, visa nationals (including Russian nationals) are still required to produce a visa before a carrier would allow them to travel, irrespective of their relationship to someone in the UK. This requirement includes family permits and residence cards. For that reason, it is highly advisable that your spouse applies for an EEA family permit before attempting to travel.

You were also concerned about the amount of documentation your spouse was asked to provide when making an EEA family permit application. I must stress that all applicants are requested to provide a similar list of documents for all entry clearance applications, including EEA family permit applications. These documents help Entry Clearance Officers to verify information provided by the applicant and process applications as quickly and efficiently as possible. However, in light of correspondence on the subject from the European Commission, UKvisas are reviewing our guidance on supporting documentation for EEA family permit applications.

I hope this information now clarifies your concerns.

Regards
****
Vice Consul/ECO

[Richard66]

I notice that on the visa databases of Emirates and Delta all mention to EEA FP has vanished:

07OCT08 / 1624 UTC
National Russian Federation (RU)/Residence Italy (IT)
Destination United Kingdom (Great Britain) (GB)

United Kingdom (Great Britain) (GB)


Passport required.
- Passport and/or passport replacing documents must be valid
for the period of intended stay.

Visa required.

Minors:
- When their names are registered in the passport of (one of)
their parents or guardians, For details, click here
- Children must also comply with the entry or transit
regulations. For details, click here
Additional Information:
- Flights from United Kingdom to Channel Islands, Ireland
(Rep. of) and Isle of Man are domestic flights. Therefore
passports are not required for any nationality.
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member state For details, click here
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member state For details, click here
Warning:
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Britain & Northern Ireland" and "Ireland (Rep. of)".
For details, click here
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Timaticweb Version 1.3
07 October 2008

Of course, EEA FPs are not visas... Are they no longer accepted?