British by double descent

[mortimer33]

Hello
I have a British passport (British by descent through my father). I was born and raised in Rep. Ireland. I have 2 kids who were both born in Ireland. Are they entitled to British passports through double descent. They are both aged under 12. I have never lived in the UK.

Thanks in advance!

[alterhase58]

Not sure about the "double descent" query.
If you are British by descent then your children born abroad will not be British and not entitled to passports.
British citizenship can only be passed down one generation. Are your children Irish citizens? If so they and you could take advantage of the Common Travel Area (CTA) which applies to Irish and British citizens only.

[secret.simon]

Citizenship by double descent is extremely rare and is, to the best of my knowledge, only possible under very limited circumstances related to the Federation of Rhodesia and Nyasaland (modern day Zambia, Zimbabwe and Malawi). And that is only because of an error in the drafting of laws governing that federation.

It almost certainly does not apply to births in the Republic of Ireland.

If you, the other parent and both children move to the UK, including Northern Ireland, for at least three continuous years, before the children's 18th birthday, then the children have an entitlement to be registered as British citizens and can then apply for British passports.

[lemonbat]

This is not true that "double descent" is rare or restricted to a few countries. The 1948 BNA allowed for what people call "double descent" in section 5, and now because of the 2022 changes to the 1981 BNA (section 4L), a lot of people are now eligible to register for it based on having a British grandmother or a British mother who had citizenship by descent. They use the ARD application for it. I've seen people ask about this before here and this wrong info has been given out then too. I had to make an account just to correct this. I'm a citizen by "double descent" now because of all of the above so this isn't an abstract concept - it's real. No where is it officially called "double descent" of course, that is just a colloquial term for it. And people who get it from the ARD app actually get citizenship other than by descent too.

No idea if this person is eligible, but a lot of people are so maybe read the 1948 BNA section 5 and the 1981 BNA section 4L and 4C because you will get more questions on this and it's really sad to give out wrong info that affects people's lives.

[secret.simon]

This is not true that "double descent" is rare or restricted to a few countries. The 1948 BNA allowed for what people call "double descent" in section 5, and now because of the 2022 changes to the 1981 BNA (section 4L), a lot of people are now eligible to register for it based on having a British grandmother or a British mother who had citizenship by descent. They use the ARD application for it. I've seen people ask about this before here and this wrong info has been given out then too. I had to make an account just to correct this. I'm a citizen by "double descent" now because of all of the above so this isn't an abstract concept - it's real. No where is it officially called "double descent" of course, that is just a colloquial term for it. And people who get it from the ARD app actually get citizenship other than by descent too.

No idea if this person is eligible, but a lot of people are so maybe read the 1948 BNA section 5 and the 1981 BNA section 4L and 4C because you will get more questions on this and it's really sad to give out wrong info that affects people's lives.

The purpose of an open forum is precisely to allow diverse opinions to be corrected and I welcome your alternate interpretation.

The thing about Form ARD and Section 4L is that
(a) they are both fairly new,
(b) we haven't had much discussion on these forums about them,
(c) the guidance on the form is fairly vague, thus not giving us the ability to advise more precisely on it.
(d) Section 4L does require an argument based on "historical legislative unfairness", which I have not observed in this post.

Note that the moderators are unpaid volunteers and not lawyers. While we keep ourselves abreast of developments in the law, we tend to rely on the guidance and publicly available information on immigration and nationality law.

I still think that the easiest manner for the OP and family is a straightforward move to the UK (perhaps NI) for three continuous years as a family unit, and register under Section 3.5, which is an entitlement after the conditions mentioned above are met.

I suggest posting your story with Section 4L in a separate thread to guide others on these forums.

[Amber]

Section 4L BNA 1981 - this is not a catch all for anyone to apply, there has to be legislative unfairness, this does not mean that citizenship by “double descent” is now recognised. See example 10 on page 17 of the caseworker guidance - https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... pdf#page17

[lemonbat]

I do know it's not a "catch-all" and I don't need to re-read the guidance - "I'm a citizen by "double descent" now because of all of the above..." I applied myself without a solicitor using section 4L so I do understand it. There are many, many people eligible to register under 4L and it is a real, viable route for people that meet the requirements.

Double descent is just a colloquial term used to describe the fact that per the 1948 BNA a person born in a foreign country to a father who was British by descent could also automatically obtain British citizenship by descent if their birth was registered within a year. And now that retroactively applies to people born in the same situation to a British mother who had citizenship by descent. I am not sure what you mean that the thing people describe as "double descent" isn't being "now recognized" - it was a legislated, recognized thing since 1948...

[Amber]

I am not saying that there are not circumstances where section 4L would apply, but that will require the applicant showing legislative unfairness, this is not something new, judicial review has always been available for nationality cases, equity prevails.

[lemonbat]

I'm not even sure what your point is? Section 4L and ARD are definitely new avenues for people to register and a whole lot easier, and I would assume cheaper, than judicial review. ARD is a simple application that costs, in my case at least, 80 pounds total.

[kelseyk]

I'm not even sure what your point is? Section 4L and ARD are definitely new avenues for people to register and a whole lot easier, and I would assume cheaper, than judicial review. ARD is a simple application that costs, in my case at least, 80 pounds total.

Hi lemonbat,
Are you kindly able to share the specifics of your successful 4L case? Or better yet, as suggested above, it would be awesome if you could kindly start a "4L successful" topic that people can post to. There does seem to be variance with 4L as it 'discretionary' which by definition is case by case and therefore no court case to set precedence for all to see. In my case, I likely would not be granted citizenship as I don't have ROA (my ggf, mom's gf, was born in England). A thread allowing people to be able to compare their situations to successful 4Ls would be extremely helpful and appreciated.

[Amber]

I'm not even sure what your point is? Section 4L and ARD are definitely new avenues for people to register and a whole lot easier, and I would assume cheaper, than judicial review. ARD is a simple application that costs, in my case at least, 80 pounds total.

1. That 4L would not apply to the OP.
2. That 4L is as a result of Judicial Review cases and
3. The application of 4L is specific to the factors of each particular case.

If you wish to describe your particular case with your particular facts then by all means do so, on your own post.