ESC

Click the "allow" button if you want to receive important news and updates from immigrationboards.com


Immigrationboards.com: Immigration, work visa and work permit discussion board

Welcome to immigrationboards.com!

Login Register Do not show

Proving ex spouse's treaty rights after divorce - Pls help

Family member & Ancestry immigration; don't post other immigration categories, please!
Marriage | Unmarried Partners | Fiancé | Ancestry

Moderators: Casa, archigabe, CR001, push, JAJ, ca.funke, Amber, zimba, vinny, Obie, EUsmileWEallsmile, batleykhan, meself2, geriatrix, John, ChetanOjha, Administrator

Locked
nello
Newly Registered
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:20 pm
Location: London

Proving ex spouse's treaty rights after divorce - Pls help

Post by nello » Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:56 pm

Hello Everyone,

I have been declined for PR (she is an EEA national) as I failed to prove that my ex spouse was excersising treaty rights at the time of divorce. We got married in Dec 2003 and divorced October 2008. I have given the HO proof of her employment from Dec 2002-Aug 2007. I need to find a way of proving her emplyment from Aug 07 - Oct 08. Thers is no way that she will help me. The last thing she wants to do is help me stay here. Unfortunately our marriage didn't end in a very amicable way.I have called her employer and spoke to them. They are not willing to give a letter of employment as she doesn't want them to. I then had a private investgations company look into it. They got someone to call her company and the person confirmed her employement and dates of employement but this is not good enough. The provided me with a letter (that I had to pay £150 for) comfirming their findings.

Is there ANY way of proving her treaty rights if she is not willing to assist?

My appeal has been lodged and I am waiting for a court date. My solicitor hasn't come up with any ideas other than her co-operating.

Your advice will be much appreciated. :-)

jude
Junior Member
Posts: 95
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 10:39 am
Location: Reading

HY

Post by jude » Mon Aug 10, 2009 8:07 pm

I just don't understand HO anymore . you can try and sent John or Morphen private mail . Do they ask you to provide prove during the time or what? I have apply for mine it almost 2 months now I have not heard anything . I have provide that she was here study working during our divorce. Do you just need to prove that or more from ur X EEA?
hallo

nello
Newly Registered
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:20 pm
Location: London

Post by nello » Tue Aug 11, 2009 7:12 am

The only proof that I'm missing is proving her excersising Treaty rights from Aug 2007 - October 2008 when we got divorced. I have all the other documentation/proof that they want.

mego_1980
Member
Posts: 146
Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2009 9:10 am

Post by mego_1980 » Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:03 am

Hi,

I think to get PR after divorce , you don't need to provide HO that your ex wife was excersising treaty rights during marriage time but you need to provide that during divorce time.

thanks

nello
Newly Registered
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:20 pm
Location: London

Post by nello » Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:29 am

Hi there,

Thanks for you reply. The HO wants to see proof that she was excersising Treaty rights from the date of marriage - Dec 03- till termination of the marrige - October 08. I have proof from Dec 03 - Aug 07 so I only need to prove Aug 07 - Oct 08. The problem is that no one will release that information without her approval and she will not help me at all.

kira1
Newly Registered
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:07 pm

Post by kira1 » Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:23 am

ho can be very confusing lots of people i knew got asked for proof of treaty at the time of divorce.
i went thru lots of trouble getting mine ready then i never got asked. this is double standard.

my only advice to u is not to go on appeal with nothing but words as they will not agree with you.

call the tax office and see wat they can do for you.
if it was me , i know its illegal i wud follow get picture of her entering and coming out, get her colleagues to confirm or if one of them can be a witness get the managers name and number give it to the judge.

SHOW YOU KNOW WAT U R TALKING ABOUT.

Obie
Moderator
Posts: 15163
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:06 am
Location: UK/Ireland
Ireland

Post by Obie » Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:20 am

This requirement that the spouse should prove that up to the time the decree absolute was issued, the estranged spouse was exercising a treaty right in the UK, is illegal and not mentioned in the directive.

I think, like the Irish Authority, the UK border agency are just adding things as they go along. Just to curtail the rights of individual.

Is it not unrealistic for them to ask you to get your wife to provide you evidence that up to the time your divorce Absolute was issued, she was exercising treaty rights in the UK. Especially if the separation ended bitterly.

This clause needs to be ruled against like in the case of Metock.

However in the meantime, you can contact the Inland Revenue and See if they can provide you any evidence to this effect.

The UK border Agency has access to the system and can check it up by just entering the individuals NI number. Why are they not doing so, rather than rejecting your application, simply on that basis.

Look at the law guys and give your take on this.

Article 13
Retention of the right of residence by family members in
the event of divorce, annulment of marriage or termination
of registered partnership
1. Without prejudice to the second subparagraph, divorce,
annulment of the Union citizen's marriage or termination of
his/her registered partnership, as referred to in point 2(b) of
Article 2 shall not affect the right of residence of his/her family
members who are nationals of a Member State.
Before acquiring the right of permanent residence, the persons
concerned must meet the conditions laid down in points (a),
(b), (c) or (d) of Article 7(1).
2. Without prejudice to the second subparagraph, divorce,
annulment of marriage or termination of the registered partnership
referred to in point 2(b) of Article 2 shall not entail loss of
the right of residence of a Union citizen's family members who
are not nationals of a Member State where:
(a) prior to initiation of the divorce or annulment proceedings
or termination of the registered partnership referred to in
point 2(b) of Article 2, the marriage or registered partnership
has lasted at least three years, including one year in
the host Member State; or
(b) by agreement between the spouses or the partners referred
to in point 2(b) of Article 2 or by court order, the spouse
or partner who is not a national of a Member State has
custody of the Union citizen's children; or
(c) this is warranted by particularly difficult circumstances,
such as having been a victim of domestic violence while
the marriage or registered partnership was subsisting; or
(d) by agreement between the spouses or partners referred to
in point 2(b) of Article 2 or by court order, the spouse or
partner who is not a national of a Member State has the
right of access to a minor child, provided that the court has
ruled that such access must be in the host Member State,
and for as long as is required.
Before acquiring the right of permanent residence, the right of
residence of the persons concerned shall remain subject to the
requirement that they are able to show that they are workers
or self-employed persons or that they have sufficient resources
for themselves and their family members not to become a
burden on the social assistance system of the host Member
State during their period of residence and have comprehensive
sickness insurance cover in the host Member State, or that they
are members of the family, already constituted in the host
Member State, of a person satisfying these requirements. 'Sufficient
resources' shall be as defined in Article 8(4).
Such family members shall retain their right of residence exclusively
on personal basis.
Last edited by Obie on Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

ciaramc
Senior Member
Posts: 552
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:43 am

Post by ciaramc » Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:56 pm

It's very well to say that the British Government should not be requesting this information but sadly they are so the best thing for the OP to do is to contact your local tax office and see if they can help you out? Remember when you appeal you can tell the judge the full story and I'm sure if he really feels necessary he can ask the UKBA to check out your ex wife's work status?

nello
Newly Registered
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:20 pm
Location: London

Post by nello » Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:12 pm

Thank you so much for the replies. I am most grateful for any advice. After much thought I have written to me ex spouse (basically begging her) to provide me with this letter. I spoke with my solicitor this morning who said that we HAVE to have solid proof of her Treaty rights for the period in question. He also said that the onus is on me to get this information and the HO will not confirm her employment on my behalf. I am however going to point out to him as Obie mentioned that this requirement is not mentioned in the directive and see what he says. I will also try the tax office again.

Obie
Moderator
Posts: 15163
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:06 am
Location: UK/Ireland
Ireland

Post by Obie » Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:36 pm

Mate, without a stretch of my imagination, i think your solicitor is worthless and hopeless.

If he is asking you to provide all these information, for which your application was refused, what is the point paying him in the first place. Ooh! please tell me you are not paying him.

If you can get all these information, you can just go to the court and defend yourself, or write to the UKBA telling them you have a change of circumstance and they will withdraw the case.

No need to hire him. I only hire lawyers, if i want them to fight an illegal refusal. However if i can meet the demand, then i will have no need to hire them.

Can you imagine if these brilliant lawyers in Ireland had told their client to provide evidence that they have lived lawfully in another member state before moving over to Ireland, before their cases could be fought.

These lawyers just like to have things easy these days. It is disgraceful.

If she doesn't give you a positive response to your letter, PM me and i will advise you on another avenue you can use to provide the UKBA their request.
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

nello
Newly Registered
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:20 pm
Location: London

Post by nello » Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:13 pm

Thanks Obie. I am doubting my solicitor now. They helped me with my initial family permit in 2004 and they were great. The guy that I'm dealing with now has not been the best to be honest. I now have a court date of September 17th.

What do you suggest I do then? Wait to see what she says, if she agrees dis-instruct my solicitor? I'm am quite nervous about the whole thing hence why I went to them for help. Btw. I am most definately paying them.

Obie
Moderator
Posts: 15163
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:06 am
Location: UK/Ireland
Ireland

Post by Obie » Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:21 pm

Have a look at these links.

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=41669

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=38252

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... ht=morpheo

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... ht=morpheo

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... ht=morpheo

These are people with similar experience to yours.

See what the tax office and your estranged wife says and take it from there. Hopefully goodness will come into her heart and she would provide the information for you.

Please check you Private message. I note you have not read the reply to the message you sent me.
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

nello
Newly Registered
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:20 pm
Location: London

Post by nello » Tue Aug 11, 2009 6:35 pm

Thank you to everyone for your input. I have another question if I may. The HO made a mistake when I applied for PR. I provided (and confirmed with them on several occasions) two employer references for my ex spouse. From Dec 2003 - August 2007. (3 years and 8 months) however they only mention one of these references in my refusal letter which is worth 1 year and 11 months. Surely the second reference worth 2 years and 3 months would've made my case a lot stronger? Somehow the second reference is not mentioned at all. My solicitor says that it won't make a difference as the the HO are wanting proof right up to the point of divorce.

I feel that I am able to prove her employement up to the point of initial proceedings which should be enough?

Thank you once again.

Obie
Moderator
Posts: 15163
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:06 am
Location: UK/Ireland
Ireland

Post by Obie » Tue Aug 11, 2009 7:04 pm

I hope you have a copy of the reference issued, prior to the proceedings being initiated and that it shows she was exercising treaty rights up to that time.

I think the directive is quite explicit. Prior to initiation of divorce proceedings, not prior to issuing of decree absolute.
All your evidence should be centered on the later and not necessarily the former.
The later should also show that she had been living in the UK at least 1 year of the required 3 years before your marriage break up.

to initiation of the divorce or annulment proceedings
or termination of the registered partnership referred to in
point 2(b) of Article 2, the marriage or registered partnership
has lasted at least three years, including one year in
the host Member State; or
Last edited by Obie on Tue Aug 11, 2009 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

Obie
Moderator
Posts: 15163
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:06 am
Location: UK/Ireland
Ireland

Post by Obie » Tue Aug 11, 2009 7:09 pm

Delete duplicate
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

nello
Newly Registered
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:20 pm
Location: London

Post by nello » Tue Aug 11, 2009 7:19 pm

Thank you Obie,

I have just e-mailed my solicitor pointing out exactly what you've mentioned re article 13. I hope to have a reply from him tomorrow. I have a copy of the reference from her employer.

nello
Newly Registered
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:20 pm
Location: London

Post by nello » Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:04 pm

I have just heard back from my solicitor regarding article 13. He said that he needs to investigate further and will get back to me. I'm not sure whether he is familiar with this or not.

Rozen
Diamond Member
Posts: 1177
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:09 pm
Location: Nederland

Post by Rozen » Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:11 pm

nello wrote: I'm not sure whether he is familiar with this or not.
If he 'needs to investigate further', then he obviously isn't! Maybe he should be paying you! :wink:

Obie
Moderator
Posts: 15163
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:06 am
Location: UK/Ireland
Ireland

Post by Obie » Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:20 pm

nello wrote:I have just heard back from my solicitor regarding article 13. He said that he needs to investigate further and will get back to me. I'm not sure whether he is familiar with this or not.
I have my misgiving about these lawyers. I only hire them if i absolutely have to. They are the same everywhere.

I visited one in Ireland. I had to be quoting the Law, and each time he will tell me to hold on for him to check.

I refused to pay the consultation in the end.

I wished i had taken after my old man, and get into law rather than the medical profession.

It pains me seeing how people's right is been trample upon.
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

nello
Newly Registered
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:20 pm
Location: London

Post by nello » Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:31 pm

Thank you once again for replying. I'm not sure what to do now. I am due in court on the 17th September. My solicitor has lodged the appeal which they will charge me for, I paid them for the 45 minutes I spent with them initially and I'm sure they've charged me for the 2 minutes on the phone and 5 e-mails we've exchanged and because I've never done this before I am nervous to do it alone and get rejected again.

This whole HO experience has been VERY challenging to say the very least. I've been without my passport for nealy 9 months now.

nello
Newly Registered
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:20 pm
Location: London

Post by nello » Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:11 am

Hello Everyone,

I have another question please. I seperated from my wife in April 2007 (as per the divorce petition stamped by the court) after 3 years and 4 months of marriage. Will they accept that date as the initiation of the divorce proceedings even though the petition in dated Jun 2008? I am able to prove her treaty rights up to August 2007. If they use June 08 as the initiation of divorce I'll have a problem (again). I wonder if (seperation) means initiating divorce proceedings? I have not yet heard back from my ex after the (begging) letter I wrote to her.

Thanks once again for your help.

Obie
Moderator
Posts: 15163
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:06 am
Location: UK/Ireland
Ireland

Post by Obie » Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:57 am

I think the law is explicit. Initiation of divorce proceedings.

And by definition Initiation means : Start or commencement of something.

Not conclusion of divorce proceeding. Which could be translated as the issuing of Divorce Absolute or Divorce nisi.
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

nello
Newly Registered
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:20 pm
Location: London

Post by nello » Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:20 pm

Ok. Thank you very much. :)

nello
Newly Registered
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:20 pm
Location: London

Post by nello » Thu Aug 13, 2009 3:17 pm

I've just heard from my solicitor and the barristor is happy to use the investigations report that I obtained to prove her treaty rights. He wants to have it sworn though which costs more money but it's worth it. A bit strange that on Monday I was advised that it won't stand up in court but since speaking to the barristor it will! If this can be used as valid proof in a court then it could help many poeple struggling with this issue?

Obie
Moderator
Posts: 15163
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:06 am
Location: UK/Ireland
Ireland

Post by Obie » Thu Aug 13, 2009 3:20 pm

That is fantastic, at least there is hope, or light at the end of the tunnel
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

Locked