Wife-to-be's future settlement - after deception

dazzle · Post by **dazzle** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:46 am

REMOVED

dazzle · Post by **dazzle** » Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:40 am

I forgot to mention that she is pregnant with my baby.

Any ideas please?

dazzle · Post by **dazzle** » Sat Nov 07, 2009 12:18 pm

Just another addition to the question:

Would an EEA family permit be applicable or advisable in this situation?

Post by **PaperPusher** » Sat Nov 07, 2009 12:50 pm

You will just have to apply.

Do not even think about not telling the truth about previous visits, the consequences will be much worse.

Post by **PaperPusher** » Sat Nov 07, 2009 1:09 pm

Hello

An EEA family permit could be applied for if, for example, you are French and you both want to live and work in the UK.

Also ify ou have lived and worked for example in another EEA country and wish to return to the UK.

I do not think it is possible according to what you have said so far.

Wanderer · Post by **Wanderer** » Sat Nov 07, 2009 1:22 pm

First, check the appropriate visa form to see if it mentions about having to declare previous visits, and/or other passports held. I think it does so you are screwed there but check anyway.

Re EEA FP you'd have to have lived and worked in another EU State for six months, marry, return to UK under Singh ruling, not sure if UKBA would still object in view of the seriousness of the deceptions and I'm also not sure if they can legally under EU rules.

Or you could just relocate to another country and remain there.

Post by **PaperPusher** » Sat Nov 07, 2009 2:01 pm

Don't forget about biometrics/fingerprint checks.

Post by **Obie** » Sat Nov 07, 2009 2:11 pm

Provided her name and details are the same, she can simply say she has been to the UK in the past on a Nigerian Passport, and would like to travel this time on her Cameroonian passport. No need to divulge what you haven't been asked. If asked, then she can divulge.

The revocation of her passport, will not go against her, for UK visa, as she has never breached UK immigration Law, or sought leave to remain or enter by deception.

The fact that she went and returned again, will go hugely on her favour

Wanderer · Post by **Wanderer** » Sat Nov 07, 2009 2:15 pm

Obie wrote: The revocation of her passport, will not go against her, for UK visa, as she has never breached UK immigration Law, or sought leave to remain or enter by deception.

She entered the UK on a false passport.

Post by **Obie** » Sat Nov 07, 2009 2:23 pm

The passport is not false, by definition of the word.

It was a valid travel document issued by the Nigerian authority.

Her eligibility to citizenship , which confers right to a passport was subsequently called into question, which led to the passport being revoked.

The passport was not forged or anything.

The fact that the Nigerian authority, did not press for prosecution or anything is in itself evidence, that this was a misdemeanor, if it is a crime at all. She was misled, and did something wrong, which i am sure she is aware of now.

I think it is best not to speculate on these things, as the facts are not well know to us.

She lied about her father's nationality on her application could be called into question, but i am sure this will not affect a spousal visa application.
The other thing one would need to ask themselves is this;

Would the decision to issue her a visa been different, if the true nationality of her father was disclosed. I am sure no.

meats · Post by **meats** » Sat Nov 07, 2009 2:29 pm

Obie wrote:The passport is not false, by definition of the word.

It was a valid travel document issued by the Nigerian authority.

Her eligibility to citizenship , which confers right to a passport was subsequently called into question, which led to the passport being revoked.

The passport was not forged or anything.

The fact that the Nigerian authority, did not press for prosecution or anything is in itself evidence, that this was a misdemeanor, if it is a crime at all.

I think it is best not to speculate on these things as the fact are not well know to us.

I am convinced she did not breach any UK immigration rules, or withheld information, which could have resulted in refusal of any entry clearance she was issued with in the past

Applying for a passport using false information isn't a crime? She has lied to obtain a passport that she's not entitled to, that IS a crime. She has therefore used deception to try and enter the UK.

Post by **Obie** » Sat Nov 07, 2009 2:36 pm

I am sure the forum is not equipped enough to act as judge and jury.

Innocent until proven guilty. As far as i know this woman has not been convicted of anything.

Post by **PaperPusher** » Sat Nov 07, 2009 2:40 pm

Using a fraudulently obtained passport is actually using a false document.

http://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKIAT/2009/00043.html

A genuine document may contain a false representation. If it does, refusal under para. 320(7A) is lawful.

Perhaps it may be worth seeing a solicitor or immigration advisor.

There is also the issue that if both live outside the UK they will have to have savings or a credible job offer to be able to show that they can maintain themselves. They will also need somewhere to live.

People applying for spouse visas do not get penalised as much as say visitors for previous breaches of the immigration rules or deception however.

meats · Post by **meats** » Sat Nov 07, 2009 2:57 pm

Obie wrote:I am sure the forum is not equipped enough to act as judge and jury.

Innocent until proven guilty. As far as i know this woman has not been convicted of anything.

The fact is she has committed a crime, you can butter it up however you want but a crime has been committed.

Let's say that i was to go and steal a pack of crisps from my local shop, as soon as i steal it then i've committed a crime regardless of whether i get caught or not.

Post by **PaperPusher** » Sat Nov 07, 2009 4:04 pm

They cannot cry over spilt milk. As the original poster seems to understand it is a serious issue but it needs to be addressed.

I have had a look at the application form.

It asks about previous passports over the last 10 years and where these are now. It asks about travel history over the past 10 years. It also asks for the applicant's father's name and place of birth.

There is a space for additional information.

There is no option as far as I can see except to be completely honest.

If she lies in her application to try to cover up the past and gets caught out she is stuffed, and it means the application will be refused.

Post by **Obie** » Sat Nov 07, 2009 5:44 pm

PaperPusher wrote:
A genuine document may contain a false representation. If it does, refusal under para. 320(7A) is lawful.

A genuine document containing a false representation is quite different from a document being false/falsified in it entirety or forged.

This is quite a complex area. I will try not to hijack this thread by explaining it.

The linked you showed, actually confirms what i said, as opposed to discarding it.

To OP- Your best bet is to apply for a spousal Visa as previously advised by myself and other helpful and productive members, which i am sure she will qualify for.

meats · Post by **meats** » Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:04 pm

Obie wrote:]

A genuine document containing a false representation is quite different from a document being false/falsified in it entirety or forged.

Not really, one has been obtained using fraud (criminal offence) and the other one is just illegal altogether. The fact of the matter is that using either of them is a criminal offence.

dazzle · Post by **dazzle** » Sun Nov 08, 2009 12:28 pm

REMOVED

meats · Post by **meats** » Sun Nov 08, 2009 12:43 pm

dazzle wrote:Thanks for all of the replies.

The frustrating thing is that she was not aware of the consequences at the time of obtaining the passport. She was thinking of going to Cameroon to get a legitimate passport, but was advised to get a Nigerian one by some people who were only interested in making a quick buck. If only she had followed her gut instinct.

Ignorance of the law is no defence, it's unfortunate that she fell for it but that's something that she will have to deal with now.

dazzle wrote:We are both fully aware of the severity of the offence. In fact she was very nearly imprisoned for it. She was released just before this happened due to my position. (I won't go into further detail on that)

I am beside myself deciding what route to take. I want to disclose everything and be honest in an application. However, I fear that during the UKBA checks they will contact the Nigerian authorities, and they will then change their decision and want to convict her. Is it likely that this will happen, and in this case does anybody have any idea if someone can be extradited for this offence?

Everything should be disclosed on the application form. I personally think that the application will get refused because of the fraudulantly obtained Nigerian passport but failure to disclose that information could result in far greater consequences should the UKBA find out about it and will definitely result in a refusal and ban.

The best thing she can do is get the Cameroonian passport legally, be truthful about the past but show that she didn't overstay her visas previously (flight tickets in and out of the country) and didn't work (bit harder to prove).

As said earlier, i think the application will be refused. The fact that she's pregnant won't make any difference and they'll just say that you can live with her in her country or Nigeria as that's where you currently are.

meats · Post by **meats** » Sun Nov 08, 2009 12:45 pm

As for the extradition, do Cameroon and Nigeria have any agreement in place? I'd be surprised if she got into the UK but if she did then i don't think she'd be extradited to Nigeria for fraudulantly obtaining a Nigerian passport.

Post by **Obie** » Sun Nov 08, 2009 1:44 pm

There are no extradition treaty signed between Nigeria and Cameroun. Even if there is one, i don't think she can be extradited, as there is not a warrant of arrest against her, neither is did she escape on bail, or further charges been pressed against her.

The extradition cases i have had in Africa recently involved high profile cases.

Besides i don't think Nigeria or Cameroun would be prepared to pay so much money flying her to be charged in Nigeria, for an offense of this nature.

In regard to the application, if you apply for a British Spousal Visa, provided you meet the Maintenance and Accommodation requirement, i don't think they will refuse her, as she qualifies unde Rule 320 (7B) which supersedes 320(7A)

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/polic ... les/part9/

An entry clearance officer will be wrong to refuse her on grounds that she could settle in Cameroun with you, as this is not provided for in the Immigration rules.

I will strongly suggest you don't apply for a visitors visa as, she might get refused on 320(7A)

dazzle · Post by **dazzle** » Sun Nov 08, 2009 4:00 pm

REMOVED

meats · Post by **meats** » Sun Nov 08, 2009 4:35 pm

dazzle wrote:
The fact that she's pregnant won't make any difference and they'll just say that you can live with her in her country or Nigeria as that's where you currently are.
Thats not necessarily true. At the moment I am in Cameroon on a tourist visa (1 month), and in any case my employment is likely to be terminated in Nigeria very soon.

Therefore I have to return to the UK, as my next job offer is there (I will have this in writing for the application)

Thanks again for the input.. more is welcome so that we can make a fully informed decision

The employment being terminated will clearly affect your work in Nigeria but the pregnancy won't necessarily have a 'positive' impact on your partner's application. By positive i mean making it more likely to succeed.

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Wife-to-be's future settlement - after deception

Wife-to-be's future settlement - after deception