Family member(mother) of an EU citizen visa refusal.

[omila250]

Just an update, my mom just got a call from the Irish embassy saying that she refus3ed visa again... the reason that she didnt prove her financial situation or something like this, she couldn't tell me exactly as she was so shocked... but we didnt try to prove any financial situation or dependancy or anything re finance... we were proving that she is coming form the same household. and we had all documents. i am lost even more now, going to call them myself on Manday as they closed now and ask why they refused second time. Please, need your thoughts or advises,i have one appiel now, i need to prepare, may be it would be better if i ask a lowyer to appiel? Thank in advance.

[acme4242]

omila250, this is so wrong, not just from the personal pain. but also because its an attack on your lawful EU rights,
Ironically, If your mother had been independent financially, you would have less of a right, but that is irrelevant here.

You applied on the basis, that your mother was a member of the same household as you. With all needed documents. So this refusal on the basis of your mothers financially means, violates your lawful rights.

I recall another user on this forum had similar issues with Germany
read their posts here

I'm sorry, I don't know a fool proof way to get the Irish to comply with the law.
I can only throw in a few ideas.

1) other options in this post Enforcement of European Union rights for Citizens in Ireland
2) MEP, either Irish or Latvian ask them if they can help
3) get a lawyer to represent you.
4) contact solvit, and raise a case
5) ignore your rights, and just do whatever the Irish Embassy asks, right or wrong, but guess you already done what you can.
6) elevate the issue to the EU commission.

[omila250]

Thanks acme4242 for your reply, i am not gonna leave it like this, its just getting even more ridiculous, firstly i am going to call inis monday morning and see how they explain it, then someone advised to give a call to the immigration council, then a lawyer. What is MEP? member of the European Parlament? I really doubt that latvian are going to help, they have a lot of other s**t to solve out.. Thanks for all your advises i will make a plan according to information i get on Monday.

[omila250]

Hi, as advised here before i emailed SOLVIT with my problem. Here is their reply:

With reference to your enquiry, Article 3(2) of Directive 2004/38 states
the following:

" (2) Without prejudice to any right to any free movement and residence
the persons concerned may have in their own right, the host Member State
shall, in accordance with its own national legislation facilitate entry and
residence for the following persons:

(a) any other family members, irrespective of their nationality, not
falling under the definition in point 2 of Article 2 who, in country from
which they have come, are dependants or members of the household of the
Union citizen having the primary right of residence, or where serious
health grounds strictly require the personal care of the family member by
the Union citizen".

Therefore Article 3(2) of the Directive appears to indicate that it is a
matter of national law regarding the facilitation of entry and residence of
any additional family members. Please note however that SOLVIT deals with
the misapplication of EU internal market law.

With reference to your enquiry, it does not appear there is a
misapplication of EU internal market law. I regret to inform you that
SOLVIT cannot provide further assistance to you.

However you may wish to clarify this matter with Citizen Signpost Service,
an independent free European Commission legal advisory service. Please find
link to the CSS website below.

http://ec.europa.eu/citizensrights/fron ... dex_en.htm

So i wonder now if i understand it wrong or please explain to me why member of the same houshold is in Directive but impossible to prove? I will contact the link above though and see what they say. Or shell i go the easy way and just start sending her money for a period of 6 month and then show bank statements that she is dependent on me??? But i want to do it the right way if i am entitled to this rights. Thanks in advance.

[acme4242]

Ben ! ... anyone... please clarify, this all comes from 2004/38/EC directive ? right ?


The Irish laws which implement 2004/38/EC are
SI 656 of 2006 amended by SI 310 of 2008

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/SI656of2 ... of2006.pdf
amended by
http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/SI%20310 ... 202008.pdf

The application was as family member of household,
the Irish law says they can only be rejected under the following conditions

(4) Without prejudice to any rights or entitlements which a permitted family member may have, on
an individual basis, under these Regulations, a permitted family member may not be refused
permission to enter the State unless -

(a) following the examination referred to in paragraph (2), the Minister is not satisfied that the
person concerned is a permitted family member,

(b) he or she is suffering from a disease specified in Schedule 1, or

(c) his or her personal conduct has been such that it would be contrary to public policy or would
endanger public security to grant him or her permission to enter the State.

“permitted family memberâ€

[omila250]

Thanks acme for your info. If its the way you said it seems there is no point even to appeal only on the basis of the same household. I have to start sending her money every month so i will be able to show my statements when we apply next time, it would probably be the end of August. Will ask a lawyer again about it, but it seems that she is not sure herself regarding this problem. Then another question, i want her to come for the summer to Ireland, to do that we can apply just for a visitor visa for up to 3 month, but if she going to be here how can i prove that i still "sending" her money, or the invitation from me and my husband stated that we are going to support her for this 3 month would be enaugh? I mean to prove her financial dependency i have to show my bank statements for the last 6 month, but what if she is going to be here on a visitor visa for 3 month...i hope i explained it right.. Thanks

[acme4242]

I really should have double read the Irish misapplication
the EU directive regarding household members. I'm sorry.

I think you need help from others at this stage. I have little
faith in the integrity. compassion, or indeed the competence
of the Irish Officials dealing with EU family members. So it might
be a further waste of energy, stress, and heartache fighting this alone.

I think if you get the support of someone with either the
authority or respect of the Embassy, you can obtain your
proper lawful EU right to have your mother live with you, sooner rather than later.
That is why I mention for example an Irish MEP or TD.
Its no harm asking them. Just be honest, straight and ask for help.

The EU Directive (which is primary) says
dependent family member
OR
member of the same household

The Irish Authorities, wrote this as
dependent family member
AND
member of the same household

But I don't think the Embassy staff even understand this, they
seem to want proof that your mother is financially independent.
And that is wrong.

Getting to a simple visitor visa question for your mother, You may need
to apply for a European Health Insurance Card (EHIC) for your
mother in her home EU country. read here (for the Irish version)
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categ ... broad/e111
It should be easy for them to understand you would not be sending
money abroad to your mother, if your mother is visiting you in
Ireland.

[omila250]

Thanks acme for your help, i really appreciate it. I never dealt with this sort of problems before so i was totaly lost. Do you think it is a good idea to make a petition to the European Parlament and complain to the Ombudsman? I will try to find a good immigration lawyer see what they say, and you are right by saying that its a huge stress to fight alone, i really need help with this problem. my fiance is irish but he is just not kind of a person to be involved in it, of course he helps me if i need his signature or a letter etc. but with the rest- i am on my own, i mean re problem with my mom. You also mention a TD, i live in Louth, any idea who can be helpfull here? Thanks again.

P.S. Just going through INIS site.. Documentation to support an EU Treaty Rights application:
Identity
Your Relationship with the EU national
Residence in this State
The activities of the EU national in the State
For the applicant:A Valid Passport
For the EU national:A Valid Passport

For other Family Members:

Satisfactory evidence of relationship with the EU national
AND
Evidence of Dependency on the EU national
OR
Evidence of membership of the EU National’s household
OR
Medical evidence, including a medical report from a physician, hospital etc.., that you require the personal care of the EU National for Health reasons
So why on their Web site they asking to provide Evidence of Dependency OR Evidence of membership of the EU household... and not both? I just don't understand that...

[acme4242]

Satisfactory evidence of relationship with the EU national
AND
Evidence of Dependency on the EU national
OR
Evidence of membership of the EU National’s household
OR
Medical evidence, including a medical report from a physician, hospital etc.., that you require the personal care of the EU National for Health reasons

This is correct according to EU law, send the link you found to the Embassy, and tell them you supplied everything according to INIS website. No more

[Obie]

When i sent my application to them, they asked for Evidence of dependancy both in the UK and Ireland, for some reason, they ignored the insurmantable evidence i showed them indicating i was living in the same household in the UK as the EEA national on whom i claimed dependancy. They simply ignored the fact that she had the primary ownership of the household in which i lived. Even though i was under 21, they still demanded the evidence of dependancy, desite writing them several letters directing them how to proceed with such application, and the fact that those requirements are unlawful.

The are reluctant to accept Dependant in the Ascending line who are (Qualifying Family Member), as (Members of the Same Household) who are Permitted Family members.

The latter is more easier to prove than the former, in terms of the dependancy requirement.

If the parents don't meet the criteria for qualifying family members as stated in the Directive or regulations, on the need to provide evidence of dependancy, they are not considered for the Article 3(2) category by the Irish, as opposed to the British, which i think is unreasonable and contrary to the rules.

The best thing is to gather evidence that you are supporting her in your country for few months, and then file another application as you suggested, or take the matter to court.

[omila250]

Hi Acme, i pm to you but it is still in my outbox for some reason and not in my sentbox.. let me know if you got it.

Thanks Obie, i sent that link i found on INIS website to INIS itself because they refused a visa, so lets see what they say about it. I started the money transfers to my mom already just to be safe in case nothing is going to work. I also will try to meet one of the TD as acme suggested and hope he can help. I will keep this post updated when i have more news.

[omila250]

Just have a look what reply i've got from SOLVIT Latvia:

Irish authoritiy have checked residence place of your mother in Ireland, not in Latvia, therefore any proof of sharing the same household in Latvia is irrelevant. You should submit the documents either where you prove that you live together in the same appartment in Ireland, or where you prove that you pay her sufficient amount of money or care for her.

In your case Article 2(2)(d) of Directive 2004/38/EC is applicable: "2. ‘family member’ means: (d) the dependent direct relatives in the ascending line..." and thus you have to prove that your mother is dependent from you.

If however, you have already submitted proof that your mother is either financially supported by you or lives at your place – please in infrom me, and I will immediately proceed the case.

Reinis Berzins
SOLVIT Coordination Centre Latvia (http://europa.eu/solvit)
Competition, Trade and Consumer Rights Unit
Ministry of Economics of the Republic of Latvia

Does not make any sence to me whats or ever... Had to reply and explain all story from the beginning, so as links to INIS and Directive itself, where clearly says that " the same household in the country she is coming from" not Ireland... as he mentioned. Im waiting for his reply now. Btw, i had no reply from INIS so far regarding the link i sent to them, though their helpline agent told me that i will get a reply withing 24 hours...It is almost 2 weeks now, so i send one more...Disaster....

[acme4242]

i had no reply from INIS so far regarding the link i sent to them, though their helpline agent told me that i will get a reply withing 24 hours...It is almost 2 weeks now, so i send one more...Disaster....

As regards no reply from the INIS, sadly they don't acknowledge errors
so easy, and they often dodge their responsibilities as public servants
who are suppose to uphold the law and justice.
But don't give up, you have right on your side.

The reply from SOLVIT-Latvia was confused, is there a language or
translation problem, did they reply in Latvian. Why on earth are the
talking about your mother living in Ireland.
Its their job to assist, that is their role. And the signpost service are
suppose to clarify the legal grounds.

Technically, Lawfully, if you get your mother to Ireland on any visa, you
can apply in Ireland for EU treaty rights.
You don't need prior clearance from the Irish Embassy, this is the EU law.
it doesn't matter which visa class, or if she had a visa at all. As long she
meets the required criteria, dependent mother, or member of the same
household in the country of origin. And you have paperwork to support
this.

read ECJ case law C-157/03
C-157/03 Opinion 2004-11-09 Commission v Spain Free movement of persons

[mummygirl]

i had no reply from INIS so far regarding the link i sent to them, though their helpline agent told me that i will get a reply withing 24 hours...It is almost 2 weeks now, so i send one more...Disaster....

As regards no reply from the INIS, sadly they don't acknowledge errors
so easy, and they often dodge their responsibilities as public servants
who are suppose to uphold the law and justice.
But don't give up, you have right on your side.

The reply from SOLVIT-Latvia was confused, is there a language or
translation problem, did they reply in Latvian. Why on earth are the
talking about your mother living in Ireland.
Its their job to assist, that is their role. And the signpost service are
suppose to clarify the legal grounds.

Technically, Lawfully, if you get your mother to Ireland on any visa, you
can apply in Ireland for EU treaty rights.
You don't need prior clearance from the Irish Embassy, this is the EU law.
it doesn't matter which visa class, or if she had a visa at all. As long she
meets the required criteria, dependent mother, or member of the same
household in the country of origin. And you have paperwork to support
this.

read ECJ case law C-157/03
C-157/03 Opinion 2004-11-09 Commission v Spain Free movement of persons

First of..

The directive said if you are travelling with your family member, in this case your mother for three months only, the visa must not be refused.

You are applying for a D visa which is not in accordance with the directive.

If you want SOLVIT to help you, you have to ask your mother to apply for a three months visiting visa.

Only then, the embassy will not ask you for work contact etc.

After your mother is in ireland, you can then apply for her to stay.

I asked my mother to apply for a three months visiting visa, at the visa application form question where they asked if it is short stay, long stay. told her to tick the long stay and i wrote a letter that i am inviting her for a three months visa and qouted the directive. she is here with me now and within 2 months, she got her resident card.

Ask her to apply again, only this time, ask for a three month visa, plus her and your birth certificate.

Dont give up.

[omila250]

Thanks mummygirl for this info. Is your mother holder of an Alien passport also? What exactly did you write in the letter? that you invite her for 3 month and going to support her? Did Embassy ask you to provide bank statement showing that you have 4-5 thousand euro? This what my mom has been told in Irish Embassy in Riga..What exactly did you quote from the Directive? Also did your mom pay for the visa or it was free of charge? Thanks in advance.

[mummygirl]

Thanks mummygirl for this info. Is your mother holder of an Alien passport also? What exactly did you write in the letter? that you invite her for 3 month and going to support her? Did Embassy ask you to provide bank statement showing that you have 4-5 thousand euro? This what my mom has been told in Irish Embassy in Riga..What exactly did you quote from the Directive? Also did your mom pay for the visa or it was free of charge? Thanks in advance.

Yes My mother has an alien passport too.

I wrote i am inviting her for a three moths visit to travel with me to europe, that i have contacted the immigration and they said she doesn't need a D visa and also according to the directive 2004/38/ec she does not need to apply for a D visa, only an visiting visa etc.

My mother was asked is she was working, which she said no, that she is dependent on me.

They asked her to pay, which is very upseting, but she pleaded with me not to make any problem with them since they issued the visa to her.

Read the directive again.

If you apply for D visa... that;s a long stay visa from non eu country. not in accordance with the directive.

Living in the same household or dependance is for when she is applying for a resident card in dublin.

[acme4242]

yes mummygirl, you are correct.

Apply visit visa C-Class, Then in Ireland,
apply for EU treaty rights, with supporting documents.

[omila250]

Thanks guys, i will do it this way, i have lost so much time... i wish i new all that before... mummygirl, what about bank statement? if she is dependent on you Embassy is asking to show them your bank statement with 4 or 5 grand.. i simply dont have this money, but it does not mean that i cannot support her! What did you do?

[mummygirl]

Thanks guys, i will do it this way, i have lost so much time... i wish i new all that before... mummygirl, what about bank statement? if she is dependent on you Embassy is asking to show them your bank statement with 4 or 5 grand.. i simply dont have this money, but it does not mean that i cannot support her! What did you do?

Write in your support letter to your mother that you will be taking care of her. they won't ask for bank statement if you are travelling with her..

You have to state that fact.

Be STONG

[Ben]

mummygirl - please don't say things which are untrue.

The onus is on the person seeking entry to Ireland to convince by provision of evidence to the Irish authorities that she has right either to enter, or to have her entry facilitated.

If the mother of the OP is either a member of the household of, or is dependent on, the OP (who is an EU national) in the country from which she is coming, she must be able to provide evidence of this to the Irish authorities.

To say:

Living in the same household or dependance is for when she is applying for a resident card in dublin.

or

they won't ask for bank statement if you are travelling with her..

is ridiculous.

omila250, you know what the rules are. If the embassy are not playing ball, and Solvit have their "useless" hat on again, try writing a letter to the EU Treaty Rights section of the INIS in Dublin. Raymond Fitzgerald is who I'd address it to, personally.

[mummygirl]

mummygirl - please don't say things which are untrue.

The onus is on the person seeking entry to Ireland to convince by provision of evidence to the Irish authorities that she has right either to enter, or to have her entry facilitated.

If the mother of the OP is either a member of the household of, or is dependent on, the OP (who is an EU national) in the country from which she is coming, she must be able to provide evidence of this to the Irish authorities.

To say:

Living in the same household or dependance is for when she is applying for a resident card in dublin.

or

they won't ask for bank statement if you are travelling with her..

is ridiculous.

omila250, you know what the rules are. If the embassy are not playing ball, and Solvit have their "useless" hat on again, try writing a letter to the EU Treaty Rights section of the INIS in Dublin. Raymond Fitzgerald is who I'd address it to, personally.

Why don't you read the directive 2004/38/ec?


Requirements for a short stay visa (family of EU citizen)
Filed under: Uncategorized — eumovement @ 7:40 am

For a short stay (“weekend awayâ€

[mummygirl]

Requirements for a short stay visa (family of EU citizen)
Filed under: Uncategorized — eumovement @ 7:40 am

For a short stay (“weekend awayâ€

[omila250]

Mummygirl, do you mean that i have to go to Riga and travel back to Ireland together with my mom?
Thanks Ben, SOLVIT Latvia are actually very helpfull, they are trying to do something as think, we are still communicating, i have to submit more information, its what i am doing at the moment. So as soon as i have any info i post here. I already emailed them twice with the links i found on their own website, i mentioned that earlier in this topic, but got a reply that they work to rule now so needed my postal address to be able to reply... lets see what they are going to reply. Depends on that i will write to Raymond Fitzgerald.

[86ti]

http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2007/04 ... u-citizen/

This is quite obviously not an official page of any sort but rather a blog entry. Hardly any evidence for what you have stated. Since you have mentioned the DIrective you would have better cited Artilce 3 therein. Ben has summarized it quite well. What the Irish authorities have made of it I can't tell.

[mummygirl]

This is in Ireland embassy for those travelling with family member that are EU citizen. There is no requirement that she has to show work contract or wages..

So read first!

All she has to show is her and her mother birth certificate.. evidence that the EU Citizen is already residing in Ireland. like her EU passport and registration certificate.


VISITS

If non EEA family members wish to ACCOMPANY an EU Citizen on a VISIT to Ireland the following documents are required:

•Application Form
•Passport
•Marriage Certificate (where applicable) - evidence (apostilled document) that marriage has been registered in applicant's country of origin/residence
•Documentary evidence that will attest to the existence and durability of the relationship (where applicable) – e.g. Registration Certificate of partnership (if applicable) or evidence of common ownership of property, joint tenancy of property, on going correspondence addressed to both partners at the same address, financial dependence/interdependence, joint bank accounts or any other relevant documentation.
•Birth Certificate (long form) for children under 21 years, parental consent, national identity card (signed if required)
•Evidence that the applicant is accompanying the EU Citizen to Ireland or evidence that the EU Citizen is already residing in Ireland