ID law for foreign looking people ruled unconstitutional

[acme4242]

[quote="background"]
Detention of an Irish citizen on “immigration groundsâ€

[ImmigrationLawyer]

This law (s.12 of the Immigration Act) always seemed unfair. I know a number of Irish and EU citizens of African background who were repeatedly stopped by Gardai and asked for their passport or papers - even though there is no requirement for Irish citizens to carry ID. In many cases refugees and other were arrested and jailed for many months on the basis that they could not produce a passport; even though they would have other forms of ID. Then, to add to the injustice, if released after having their case dealt with by the Court they could be immediately re-arrested for the same offence (still not having a passport). Last few weeks have been very good ones for immigration law in this country.

[acme4242]

Indeed, But when the Dept can fire our replies like below, nothing short of
a purge can restore justice and equality, or is that title just doublespeak.

It is understood justice officials believe other legal instruments may be used as a basis to demand presentation of ID by non-Irish nationals.

[ImmigrationLawyer]

A purge... I like it. Get them up against the wall.....! (only joking)
Not sure about any other provisions (there is something in the Refugee Act but it refers to destroying ID or use of false ID), but I guess these would probably also be unconstitutional if they have a like effect.

[Monifé]

Am I reading this correctly, non nationals do not have to provide a passport to Garda if asked anymore?

If so, if someone was previously arrested, detained & charged for not being able to show their passport (non Irish) and subsequently released after being able to obtain said passport, could this charge be quashed?

[StefanPL]

Hi Guys,

thats a cruel law and sounds really like in a Nazi or Policestate.

First of all, thats the first time i heard about that law and my wife is
a non eu national, no one ever told us about this and we saw an immigration
official a couple of times since my wife came to ireland.

So how would you know ? They seriously think you have to study all immigration laws to be able not to break the law ?

Second, what happens if you loose your passport and have to wait for a
new one to be produced (what could take months), then you can not leave
your house for that amount of time ?

And i never bring my Passport with me, its a valuable and sensitive document what i always keep at home. Never would bring it with me, only when i travel.

I thought we are in the middle of europe and not in some middle east country.

Have a nice Sumday.


Stefan

[ImmigrationLawyer]

Monife - the section was ruled as unconstitutional yesterday, apparently on the basis of vagueness, "satisfactory explanation" is undefined - I haven't read the Judgement yet. If a person has been charged but not yet convicted of the offence then the charge won't be applied by the judge, it will be dismissed. Don't think there's anything they could do if already convicted. If someone has been refused naturalisation on the ground of being convicted of this unconstitutional offence - that could be challenged.

[9jeirean]

It is understood justice officials believe other legal instruments may be used as a basis to demand presentation of ID by non-Irish nationals.

Are these guys retarded or what? Praytell, what other sort instrument do these clowns have in mind that will be more legal than an act that has been declared unconstitutional. The level of delusion within the DoJ is mind bugling.


9jeirean

[ca.funke]

It is understood justice officials believe other legal instruments may be used as a basis to demand presentation of ID by non-Irish nationals.

Are these guys retarded or what? (...)

I just lodged a complaint against the Republic of Ireland with the Commission:

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=75096

After all, no matter which "other legal instruments" they have in mind, they´d all directly contradict 2004/38/EC:

Article 26 - Checks

Member States may carry out checks on compliance with any
requirement deriving from their national legislation for non-
nationals always to carry their registration certificate or resi-
dence card, provided that the same requirement applies to their
own nationals as regards their identity card. In the event of
failure to comply with this requirement, Member States may
impose the same sanctions as those imposed on their own
nationals for failure to carry their identity card.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

I just lodged a complaint against the Republic of Ireland with the Commission:

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=75096

After all, no matter which "other legal instruments" they have in mind, they´d all directly contradict 2004/38/EC:

Super!

[acme4242]

Time for corrections and clarifications, following a discussion over here, read boards.ie discussion


1) The Section 12 of the Immigration Act was ruled unconstitutional
due to this case http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/bre ... ing31.html
Not as I posted about the Irish Citizen of Chinese extraction.

2) The 2004 act does not apply to EU nationals anyway.
The silly DOJ spokesperson/ newspaper reporter should have written Non-EU instead of Non-Irish
Sorry ca.funke.

3) As ImmigrationLawyer wrote, an earlier conviction under a law which is later ruled unconstitutional
still stands. But can be challenged if the conviction prevented naturalisation

[ca.funke]

The 2004 act does not apply to EU nationals anyway.
The silly DOJ spokesperson/ newspaper reporter should have written Non-EU instead of Non-Irish

It doesn´t matter what the reporter writes or what the spokesperson sais. The law sais "non-national" and not "non-EU-national":

12.—(1) Every non-national shall produce on demand, unless he or she gives a satisfactory explanation of the circumstances which prevent him or her from so doing—
(a) a valid passport or other equivalent document, issued by or on behalf of an authority recognised by the Government, which establishes his or her identity and nationality, and
(b) in case he or she is registered or deemed to be registered under this Act, his or her registration certificate.

(2) A non-national who contravenes this section shall be guilty of an offence.

(3) In this section “on demandâ€

[acme4242]

(2) Nothing in this Act shall derogate from—
(a) any of the obligations of the State under the treaties governing the European Communities within the meaning of the European Communities Acts 1972 to 2003,
(b) any act adopted by an institution of those Communities,

The Immigration Act 2004 does not apply to EU citizens and their family.
EU Citizens and their family come under
Irish Law SI 656 of 2006 later amended by SI 310 of 2008 (due to Metock)

NOTE: Irish Family members come under The Immigration Act 2004

[ca.funke]

Hi acme4242,

thanks for your interesting link!

I just changed my above post, just at the time when you added your reply. I hope I can just leave it like that...? (I added exactly what you posted, just at the same time...)

Even if EU citizens are excluded, then the next logical question arises: How shall a Garda on the street know if a person is an EU-national or not? Unless the law is racially applied, it is senseless.

As such the law is either futile or institutionalising beloved.

Overall I think the government has to decide: Make ID´s compulsory for all, or for no-one. Anything else won´t deliver the desired result.

Thanks again,
rgds, Christian

[acme4242]

Christian, as you once said yourself, its kafkaesque
a good word to describe it.

kafkaesque

The term has been described as "marked by a senseless, disorienting, often menacing complexity: Kafkaesque bureaucracies"[1] and "marked by surreal distortion and often a sense of impending danger: Kafkaesque fantasies of the impassive interrogation, the false trial, the confiscated passport ... haunt his innocence