Fiancee/Spousal Visa

[LL1975]

Hi, hoping for some helpful advice here about the next steps for my relationship.

I am a UK citizen and have lived in the UK all my life. My girlfriend is a South African, whom I met in 2004 whilst she was here visiting family.

After developing a relationship back then we kept in contact when she went back to South Africa and she returned in 2007 to spend some time with me.

However, she was already married (although seperated) but she was originally reluctant to divorce due to cultural pressures (her background is Hindu). However we preservered with a relationship via email/phone and real love blossomed.

Our first setback came in October 2010 when she was refused a Visitor Visa to come and visit me and attend a friend's wedding, which was a massive blow to us. The refusal said that there was not enough evidence that she intended to return to South Africa (despite evidence of property ownership, permanent full-time employment etc.).

However, I went to South Africa in April 2011 to go on holiday with her to Mozambique and we had a great time - and it proved to be a watershed for us because the time spent together convinced her to seek a divorce - and as of January 2012 this is now complete!

So what next for us? We want to get married and live in the UK, but am conscious that immigration rules are a nightmare and worry that some things may stand in our way of progressing this.

Concerns include:

1. How much negative effect will the refused Visitor Visa from October 2010 have on an application (I was the sponsor)?

2. Will we have more chance if (a) We get married in South Africa and then apply on a spousal visa, or (b) Apply for a fiancee visa and get married in the UK?

3. As we haven't spent that much time together over the years, what evidence is best required to indicate a genuine relationship? Examples I can think of off-hand include:

a. dozens of photos of us together from 2004 & 2007 (in UK) and from 2011 (in South Africa & Mozambique)

b. email communications over many years

c. phone bills (although the bulk of calls were done using call-cards)

d. a car hire agreement in my name with her name given as the second driver (from my SA/Moz holiday)

Are these sort of things enough, or should I be looking at moving to South Africa instead or waiting a long time?

Additionally, will the age gap be an issue - she is seven years older than me (36 and 43 respecively)?

[LL1975]

Bump!

Any thoughts on my situation?

From reading other accounts it seems as though it would be easier to go down the route of getting my partner here on a Fiancee Visa and then getting married, rather than getting married overseas and returning to the UK.

If you use the Fiancee Visa route, do you have to shell out again for the Spouse Visa thus doubling the cost?

[vinny]

Fiancé(e) visa holder should apply for FLR(M) after marriage.

[LL1975]

Fiancé(e) visa holder should apply for FLR(M) after marriage.

So that is paying for two visas? Ouch.

[John]

So that is paying for two visas? Ouch.

It is two visas! But there is a way to avoid that. If the two of you get legally married in South Africa, then she would apply for a spouse visa in South Africa, so cutting out the need to convert a fiancée visa into a spouse visa.

Not only that, armed with a spouse visa, she would be able to work in the UK from the moment she arrives. Whereas with a fiancée visa, that confers no right to work.

[LL1975]

So that is paying for two visas? Ouch.

It is two visas! But there is a way to avoid that. If the two of you get legally married in South Africa, then she would apply for a spouse visa in South Africa, so cutting out the need to convert a fiancée visa into a spouse visa.

Not only that, armed with a spouse visa, she would be able to work in the UK from the moment she arrives. Whereas with a fiancée visa, that confers no right to work.

Aye, that is the definite advantage there - but I get the impression that the Spouse Visas are harder to obtain and don't seem to be geared up towards newlyweds?

The fact she was previously turned down for a simple holiday visa to visit me has me really nervous about the whole thing - I used to think that refusals only happened to people trying to cheat the system, not for honest people trying to go about their lives. But that shook us both up, especially since in pre-visa days for South Africans she was able to visit without any hassle.

[SoHopeful]

My husband and I opted for the Spouse visa due to the financial implications of a) paying for two visas b) him not having the right to work if we went for the fiance. To be honest, from what i have seen, with regards to evidence Fiance and Spouse applications are quite similar.

Previous refusals will obviously be on record, but will not have a negative impact on the Spousal application.

Once you are married, you can apply whenever you are ready. Being newly weds is not an issue either.

[John]

I get the impression that the Spouse Visas are harder to obtain and don't seem to be geared up towards newlyweds?

Not sure how you got that idea. It is simply not true. If anything a spouse visa is easier to obtain, as the applicant has the right to work as soon as they arrive.

Back in 2001 my own wife's spouse visa was issued just 17 days after our legal marriage, and just 12 days after our religious ceremony.

[LL1975]

Thanks for the advice guys, it's much appreciated. With regard to the sort of things I mentioned as evidence of the authenticity of the relationship in my original post, would this be considered enough?

As things stand, we plan on me going over to South Africa in the next two months and having a 'formal engagement' (since we were waiting on her divorce to be finalised), and then making arrangements for a marriage in the summer (either in the UK or SA, going by advice on the respective merits of the Spouse/Fiancee visa).

If we go for a Spouse Visa, are there formal procedures we can enter into before the wedding takes place to minimise the work that needs to be done after the wedding - or is it a case of having to wait until the wedding is done and then start the visa process?

Is there any pattern of decisions according to factors such as nationality or race? I get the impression that foreign-born people living in the UK have a tougher time of bringing their spouses into the country than UK citizens from birth do?

[SoHopeful]

If we go for a Spouse Visa, are there formal procedures we can enter into before the wedding takes place to minimise the work that needs to be done after the wedding - or is it a case of having to wait until the wedding is done and then start the visa process?

You can get your documents together in time to submit straight after the wedding, once you have the marriage certificate.

[LL1975]

Thanks again for the advice, given the emotion and expense involved we need to get this right!

[SoHopeful]

Yup, i totally understand. It would have been nice for hubby to come and meet family and friends on a fiance/vistor's visa, but Jamaica is a tough cookie at the best of times, so with the implications i mentioned earlier, we opted for spouse.

[John]

If we go for a Spouse Visa, are there formal procedures we can enter into before the wedding takes place

Well you would need to comply with SA marriage law! And what is that? Personally I have not got a clue, but suggest your fiancée either knows, or can find out.

For example, for a marriage in the UK, there is a need to give Notice of Intention to Marry at a Register Office (or to have Banns read in a Church of England Church). But in SA? That needs to be established by the two of you.

The point is this. The two of you need to enter into a legally recognised marriage in SA, that is, a marriage recognised as a legal marriage by the SA Government. Then, under the terms of the UK's Foreign Marriages Act 1892, a foreign marriage legally recognised as a legal marriage of the country where it takes place, is also recognised as a legal marriage by the UK Government.

It then follows that your wife, as she will be, can apply for a spouse visa to come to the UK.

[LL1975]

Thanks John - I was meaning in terms of either the visa application or at least alerting any UK authorities to the marriage taking place. We are planning on me coming over to SA for a formal engagement towards Easter, at which point we will make enquiries with the SA authorities with a view to having a legal marriage around June/July (when I go back to SA for a second time this year).

Then we will submit the Spouse Application and I will go back to the UK with my fingers crossed that my new bride will be able to follow shortly.

It's certainly a daunting process.

[John]

I was meaning in terms of either the visa application or at least alerting any UK authorities to the marriage taking place.

In terms of spouse visa application, nothing to do until the application is actually made .... after the marriage!

As regards "UK authorities", that circles back to the SA requirements. In particular, where a non-SA person intends to marry in SA, do they require a CNI .... Certificate of No Impediment? Some countries do, some countries don't.

More detail of CNI on this webpage .... but don't even think of going down that route unless it is a requirement of SA marriage law.

[LL1975]

As regards "UK authorities", that circles back to the SA requirements. In particular, where a non-SA person intends to marry in SA, do they require a CNI .... Certificate of No Impediment? Some countries do, some countries don't.

More detail of CNI on this webpage .... but don't even think of going down that route unless it is a requirement of SA marriage law.

Aye, that's been a strange one, which we need to investigate - apparently I do need a CNI to marry in SA, but then the FCO website states this:

Marrying in a Commonwealth country: you cannot obtain a Certificate of No Impediment for a marriage in a Commonwealth country. You will need to speak to the authorities conducting your marriage ceremony to make them aware that you cannot obtain this and ask them what sort of alternative (if any) should be provided instead.

So not sure what to do in that case as SA is a Commonwealth country. Why don't they issue a CNI for Commonwealth countries??

[vinny]

See also Marriage and birth in South Africa.

[LL1975]

I am still confused by the wording with regard to this CNI issue - Why can I get a CNI from my local registrar office, but not if I am marrying someone in the Commonwealth?

Something doesn't add up, so I assume I am reading something wrong?