UK-EEA Family Residence Permit and Lithuania

[ca.funke]

I decided to see if I can convince Lithuania that the UK-issued EEA-Family residence permit should be accepted for visa free travel to Lithuania.

On their website they say that a visa is needed:

...NOTE: holders of resident permits/cards, issued by the United Kingdom, have to apply for Schengen visa for travel to Lithuania. Resident permit with a note “Resident Card of a Family Member of an EEA National”, issued by the United Kingdom, does not correspond to the Directive 2004/38/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 29 April 2004 on the right of citizens of the Union and their family members to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States, and therefore is not accepted as a document allowing to travel to Lithuania visa free.

by now we have a funny exchange of emails:

Dear Madam or Sir,

I (Belgian Citizen) would like to travel with my wife (Lebanese citizen, we are both resident in the UK) to Poland for two weeks, and take a short excursion to Kaunas.

I learned that I have to apply for a Schengen-Visa with the country where we enter first / stay longest, which would be Poland.

The >>Polish Consulate in London*<< informed me, that we do not have to apply for a Schengen-visa, as my wife holds a UK-issued “Resident Card of a Family Member of an EEA National”. They told us to just go and enjoy...

However, checking your website I learn that the opposite is supposedly true, that a “Resident Card of a Family Member of an EEA National” is not valid and that we have to apply for a visa.

Can you tell me what is true / what shall we do?

Thanks and regards,

Dear Mr ...,

Referring to your enquiry I‘d like to inform you that both websites display correct information meaning that travelling together with your spouse you can enter Poland without visa being required to her, however for entrance to Lithuania visa is necessary (makes lots of sense ). Although there are border control (I guess they meant "are no border control") at the Lithuanian-Polish border, I’d advice your wife to apply for a visa at this Embassy.

Sincerely yours,

There was lots of back and forth about Schengen, not acknowledging that this is about 2004/38/EC, which has nothing to do with Schengen as such.

Dear ...,

the regulations that I am referring to have nothing to do with Schengen.

The law that allows entry to my wife and me, without a visa, is 2004/38/EC (English version >>here*<<, Lithuanian version can be found >>here*<<).

• I am a Belgian citizen, as such I may enter Lithuania without a visa (2004/38/EC, Article 5 Section 1 "...No entry visa or equivalent formality may be imposed on Union citizens."). I do hope we agree on this?
• My wife possesses a UK-issued residence card according to 2004/38/EC, Article 10.
  
  • This card allows her entry into all EEA countries (this includes Lithuania), according to Article 5, Section 2:
    Right of entry
    (...)For the purposes of this Directive, possession of
    the valid residence card referred to in Article 10 shall exempt
    such family members from the visa requirement.
  • Please note this has nothing to do with Schengen!
• Were my wife not in possession of above card, she would still be allowed to enter Lithuania without visa according to Article 5, Section 4 of 2004/38/EC:

  Where a Union citizen, or a family member who is not a national of a Member State, does not have the necessary travel documents or, if required, the necessary visas, the Member State concerned shall, before turning them back, give such persons every reasonable opportunity to obtain the necessary documents or have them brought to them within a reasonable period of time or to corroborate or prove by other means that they are covered by the right of free movement and residence.

• The Embassy of Poland confirms what I say, as you can see on their website >>here*<<:
  • If you are a family member of the EU national, please note that, on the basis of Directive 2004/38/EC you do not need an entry visa...
• The Embassy of Germany confirms the same in a letter they hand to affected persons >>here*<<.

I would much appreciate if you could verify the laws I cite above in great detail, and subsequently change the information given on your website.

Until then I will report this matter to the European Commission, and my wife and me will continue to avoid Lithuania as a tourist destination (just as you unfortunately ask us to).

Thanks and regards,

Dear Mr ...,

Referring to your letter I would like to inform you that internal borders of EU may be crossed at any point without a border check on persons, irrespective of their nationality, being carried out. Since Lithuania has joined EU, there are no border checks at the internal borders with our EU neighboring countries (Poland, Latvia). Also, I would like to inform you, that visa is not necessary for residence of countries which issue the cards corresponding with provisions of the directive 2004/38/EB. The UK presently issues cards that do not correspond with the above mentioned directive. Therefore holders of this document still need visa. As soon as UK will start to issue documents corresponding with provisions of directive 2004/38/EB, the owners of such document will be not required visa. This is not Lithuanian, this is – EU legislation. Sorry for the inconveniences.

Best regards,

Dear Ms ...,
what you write is nearly correct, may I add some observations:

Referring to your letter I would like to inform you that internal borders of EU may be crossed at any point without a border check on persons, irrespective of their nationality, being carried out. Since Lithuania has joined EU, there are no border checks at the internal borders with our EU neighboring countries (Poland, Latvia).

• • Lithuania joined the European Union on May 01st 2004, which had no immediate influence on the borderchecks to neighboring countries. There are no border checks between Lithuania and Poland/Latvia since all mentioned countries joined Schengen (not the EU, as you say) on December 21st 2007.

Also, I would like to inform you, that visa is not necessary for residence of countries which issue the cards corresponding with provisions of the directive 2004/38/EB (we agree on this). The UK presently issues cards that do not correspond with the above mentioned directive.

• • The UK chooses to illegally disregard the exact letters of Article 10, which states that the residence card should be named "Residence card of a family member of a Union citizen". The UK-equivalent is called "Residence Card of a Family Member of an EEA National". As such it would only require little imagination as to what is meant. However, your following conclusion:

Therefore holders of this document still need visa. As soon as UK will start to issue documents corresponding with provisions of directive 2004/38/EB, the owners of such document will be not required visa.

• • is incorrect. If you (Lithuania) would use your imagination and agree that "Residence card of a family member of a Union citizen" and "Residence Card of a Family Member of an EEA National" both mean a residence card according to Article 10 (which it effectively is), we would agree immediately that the concerned citizens may travel. However, even if you do not agree because of the difference of the last three words, concerned people may still legally travel to Lithuania without visa according to Article 5, Section 4 of 2004/38/EC:

    Where a Union citizen, or a family member who is not a national of a Member State, does not have the necessary travel documents or, if required, the necessary visas, the Member State concerned shall, before turning them back, give such persons every reasonable opportunity to obtain the necessary documents or have them brought to them within a reasonable period of time or to corroborate or prove by other means that they are covered by the right of free movement and residence.

This is not Lithuanian, this is – EU legislation. Sorry for the inconveniences.

• • Exactly because it is EU legislation, you (Lithuania) should look around and see what other countries do. I cannot comprehend why specifically Poland (but also Germany, France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Austria and Italy) allow us entry with the mentioned UK-issued card, while you keep insisting entry is not allowed.
    
    • See Info on >>Polish Consulate´s website*<<.
    • See >>letter issued by German Embassy in London*<<.
      • considering Germany sais that entry into the EU (which includes Lithuania) is allowed, you should contact them and tell them to write "but not Lithuania" or something equivalent?! As it looks now, the German Embassy directly contradicts you!
    Other way of seeing it: If we may enter Poland and Latvia with the mentioned card, and there are no border checks between Poland/Latvia and Lithuania, what is the point of telling us that it´s not allowed to enter Lithuania? If we wanted to reach Lithuania for illegal purposes (that is what visas should avoid?) it wouldn´t be a problem (enter Poland/Latvia and then drive). However, law-abiding as we are, we don´t go and hence don´t spend money in Lithuania.
    
    
    I will repeat what I said before: Until you (Lithuania) will adopt the correct interpretation of the law, my wife and me will continue to avoid Lithuania as a tourist destination. Lithuania´s advantage to this will remain your secret.
    
    I remain at your disposal should you have questions/feedback about the subject,
    
    Thanks and Regards,

Last email sent today, Tuesday March 06th 2012. Will update the thread should I get more replies...

* All links valid as quoted on Tuesday, March 06th 2012.

[El shaddai]

Uk is the main problem and main EU headaches and not Lithuania, this is because EEA-Family residence permit issued in all memeber states including Lithuania are not acceptable as alternative to visa in UK, why should they accept UK issued EEA-Family residence permit? vice versa.

[ca.funke]

...why should they accept UK issued EEA-Family residence permit?...

Because the law obliges them to.

Just because one country (the UK) breaks the law, doesn´t mean others (Lithuania) should copy that example?

[El shaddai]

Yes the law obliges them to but the UK dont have respect for the law, are they above the law? it is the same law binding every member states. Take for example EEA-Family residence permit EUFAM 4 issued in Ireland cannot enter UK without an entry Visa. What can you say to that?

[ca.funke]

...Take for example EEA-Family residence permit EUFAM 4 issued in Ireland cannot enter UK without an entry Visa. What can you say to that?...

My wife and me entered the UK with the 4EUFam card several times without problems.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

I'm not sure that the Lithuanian residence card replicates the exact wording of article 10. I don't speak Lithuanian nor have a copy of one of their cards so cannot be certain.

[El shaddai]

Ofcourse you can enter when there are no immigration check, i knew few people that are not as lucky as you, they tried that and they received an embarrassement of their lives.
They were asked to make sure they get Visa before coming next time and finger print was taking. Does that mean they are complying with the binding laws? Dont you think EU could be better without the Almighty UK?

[El shaddai]

Lithuanian residence card does.

[ca.funke]

Ofcourse you can enter when there are no immigration check, i knew few people that are not as lucky as you, they tried that and they received an embarrassement of their lives.
They were asked to make sure they get Visa before coming next time and finger print was taking. Does that mean they are complying with the binding laws? Dont you think EU could be better without the Almighty UK?

While I don´t understand what this has to do with the topic of this thread, I guess these people were not well prepared? Did they have a copy of the law with them, and all other things as advised in >>this<< post?

They should make sure that their fingerprints are destroyed/deleted, since they did nothing illegal.

And politically -totally OT- yes, I would prefer if the UK left the EU. For many reasons, not just the immigration headache they cause.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Lithuanian residence card does.

Lithuanian residence card does what?

Like I say, I don't have one to hand, but have read the following from their conformance study.

The Directive requires issuance of a ‘Residence card of a family member of a Union citizen’, while, the Lithuanian legislation (Article 99, section 2 of the Law on Legal Status of Aliens) requires issuance of an EU residence permit (full title: Residence permit in the Republic of Lithuania of a
family member of a citizen of an EU Member State).

Maybe they've changed things.

Do you have an example? Do the words in Lithuanian match what the card is called in article 10 EXACTLY?

[El shaddai]

Check this out www.migracija.lt

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Ofcourse you can enter when there are no immigration check, i knew few people that are not as lucky as you, they tried that and they received an embarrassement of their lives.
They were asked to make sure they get Visa before coming next time and finger print was taking. Does that mean they are complying with the binding laws? Dont you think EU could be better without the Almighty UK?

I do not think I have ever read of a family member of an EU citizen having had their fingerprints taken as they entered the UK.

Some links to written experiences here: http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2010/08 ... to-travel/
Not all were 100% easy, but most were

[El shaddai]

Unfortunately it happened to a friend in 2009, i am not surprise at all because UK is above the EU directives.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

I decided to see if I can convince Lithuania that the UK-issued EEA-Family residence permit should be accepted for visa free travel to Lithuania.

Title: UK-EEA Family Permit and Lithuania

You seem to be talking through most of the article as if you are talking about a UK issued Residence Card. Is this correct?

[ca.funke]

Is this correct?

Hi Directive,

you´re right - the title was incorrect. Changed it now. Sorry for the confusion.

No reply received ever since. I guess there won´t be any more coming out of this topic. Lithuania keeps their illegal position, the Commission doesn´t do anything. Business as usual.

Rgds, Christian

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

As usual, there is probably a very different understanding of the requirements and the law by people working in the London embassy and by border guards at arrival.

[ca.funke]

As usual, there is probably a very different understanding of the requirements and the law by people working in the London embassy and by border guards at arrival.

From the ~6 emails that went back-and-forth I don´t think so.

The Lithuanian Embassy in Dublin writes the same crap about 4EUFam, the Lithuanian Ministry of Foreign Affairs was involved in the exchanges and confirmed that what´s written on the Lithuanian Embassy´s website is correct. So the only good thing I see is their uniform/consistent approach.

I was specifically advised, although there are no border checks between Poland and Lithuania, NOT to try and cross the border without a visa, as this would be considered ILLEGAL.

Still trying to reason with them, but nothing seems to come out of it.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

As usual, there is probably a very different understanding of the requirements and the law by people working in the London embassy and by border guards at arrival.

From the ~6 emails that went back-and-forth I don´t think so.

The Lithuanian Embassy in Dublin writes the same crap about 4EUFam, the Lithuanian Ministry of Foreign Affairs was involved in the exchanges and confirmed that what´s written on the Lithuanian Embassy´s website is correct. So the only good thing I see is their uniform/consistent approach.

I was specifically advised, although there are no border checks between Poland and Lithuania, NOT to try and cross the border without a visa, as this would be considered ILLEGAL.

Still trying to reason with them, but nothing seems to come out of it.

I find their position incredible. Did they ever state specifically state why they did not think that the UK issued article 10 cards? I know you put it to them in their email, but did you lead them to it or did they just state it themselves?

What's interesting is that there's a whole separate agreement between the EC and EFTA and it talks about where it reads "union citizen", means national of EC or EFTA state (ie EEA national). That's binding on Lithuania as well.

[chokedup]

finally it states on their website ...if accompanied by eu family member you do not require visa...yesssss

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

finally it states on their website ...if accompanied by eu family member you do not require visa...yesssss

Can you kindly provide us with a link?

[ca.funke]

finally it states on their website ...if accompanied by eu family member you do not require visa...yesssss

Surely not the Lithuanian Embassy in Dublin, which still (illegally) states the following:

ATTENTION: the Irish Garda Card with stamp “4 EUFam” is not admitted by Lithuania. Holders of the GNIB Card with stamp "4EUFam" do need a visa for a short stay in Lithuania.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

finally it states on their website ...if accompanied by eu family member you do not require visa...yesssss

Very interesting, but only from next month.

As of 1 July 2012 a family member (spouse or child) of an EU/EEA/EFTA national, holding “Resident Card of a Family Member of an EEA National”, issued by the United Kingdom, and travelling together with or to the EU/EEA/EFTA national, does not need visa to enter Lithuania.

http://www.lithuanianembassy.co.uk/index.php?820327570

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

finally it states on their website ...if accompanied by eu family member you do not require visa...yesssss

Surely not the Lithuanian Embassy in Dublin, which still (illegally) states the following:

ATTENTION: the Irish Garda Card with stamp “4 EUFam” is not admitted by Lithuania. Holders of the GNIB Card with stamp "4EUFam" do need a visa for a short stay in Lithuania.

Interesting, I suspect all this will change soon.

[bluecole2]

ca.funke

Well done, I guessed you have single handedly succeeded in convincing the Lithuanian embassy in London to change their stand in regards eea family member free movement right.

People like you and many other on the forum are very much needed in solvit, eu commission etc.

Well done

[Gynciuke]

To whom it may concern,


Do Lithuanians need to make a resident card while living in the UK? As I read, it says : ''this is not necessary'' . But, if I am thinking about applying for British nationality, should I consider applying for resident card first as well?


Thank you.



Kind Regards,

G