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Weird - FLR 2+3+1

Archived UK Tier 1 (General) points system forum. This route no longer exists.

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NationOne
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Posts: 55
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 1:01 am

Weird - FLR 2+3+1

Post by NationOne » Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:37 am

I've got a really wierd problem. One for the experts.

1. I got my HSMP EC in March 2004. Initial entry was stamped for 2 years!! According to the rules at that time it should have been for 1 year.

2. In March 2005, I applied for FLR because under the rules at that time, I am supposed to apply for FLR after one year, irrespective of the visa stamp. HO gave me FLR for 3 years (until March 2008).

3. Then, they changed the goddamn rules- ILR 4->5 years. So I have to apply for FLR again in March 2008.

4. But my fear is. HO may tell me - "You got 2+3 years visa stamp. So how can you apply for FLR under the HSMP scheme again? Your application is rejected"

I know I am speculating about the worst case that can happen in 2008, but this is giving me sleepless nights. Would appreciate if anyone can share their insights.

ATBPLC
Junior Member
Posts: 98
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 7:33 pm

Post by ATBPLC » Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:11 am

Hi All,
It just occured to me now that I should call on everybody to join hands in fighting this war. Even those who have got 4 years extension are not spared the ordeal.

This is because 5 years stay will be calculated from the date yor entered Uk and not date of visa, which means many who have got 4 years extension will still run short of 5 year stay requirement by the time their visa expires and they will still need to ask for some months extension.

We are in. Lets fight through the yahoo group.
#
We cannot be made victims of the change in political imperatives

ATBPLC
Junior Member
Posts: 98
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 7:33 pm

Post by ATBPLC » Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:35 pm

Hi aLL,

lETTER FROM HOME SECRETARY IN RESPONSE TO A COMPLIAN BY SOME LAWYERS

Consultation and timing:

I should first clarify that these changes are not the points based
system (PBS) and that we have not yet introduced the PBS. The
changes are, as the announcement stated, the first step towards the
pes, but they are different to that system. The new attributes are
indeed the same as those set out in the PBS Command Paper. However,
we have changed the HSMP attributes on two previous occasions within
the brief lifetime of the programme and these changes are not
different in kind to those. Indeed, HSMP has always been a
'points based system'. Many of the features which will define the
PBS - the
introduction of control tests (for example, funds), the move to a
one-stage
decision process for Tiers 1-3, and the removal of the right of
appeal in entry
clearance cases - have not been introduced with this change. It is
therefore
not correct to assert that we have now introduced the PBS without
consultation.


It is not our normal practice to carry out formal public
consultations on changes to the Immigration Rules, and I strongly
dispute the contention that we have broken any undertakings to
consult.


The changes will come into effect on 5 December and we will be
monitoring their impact, fully evaluating the new arrangements
before we make formal preparations for the implementation of Tier 1
of the PBS.

An announcement of a definite policy change within three weeks
would, I believe, have led to an even larger increase in the number
of applications, which would have resulted in very significant
operational difficulties, and, as a result, poor customer service
for applicants. In the light of this, there is no reason not to
bring the changes in quickly. However, by making the forms and
guidance available during the suspension period, we have tried to
avoid inconveniencing our clients.

You are also concerned that people who were in the process of
preparing
their HSMP applications have been disadvantaged by the changes. I
accept
that applicants in some cases may need to make further enquiries to
obtain additional documents, but this is unlikely to result in
significant additional expense - applicants will possess many of the
necessary documents themselves and are likely to be able to use some
of the others which they were already preparing to submit. In fact,
applicants can still submit applications on the old FLR (lED) form
during the suspension period, so they will not necessarily have to
redo their whole application. They can either send in additional
material or wait for us to write out to them, requesting additional
documents.

Tests at extension

I do not accept that those who receive a grant of leave in a
category have
a legitimate expectation that the rules for further grants of leave
within that
category which existed at the time of their first grant of leave
will apply to them
for the rest of the time that they spend in the UK. The rules must
be capable
of being changed from time to time so that the Government can carry
out its
policies - in this case, to ensure that those granted further leave
to remain
under HSMP will benefit the UK economy. The power to make changes to
the
Immigration Rules, as laid out in the Immigration Act 1971, is not
restricted to
changing the rules for entry, or to changing the leave to remain
rules only for
those who obtained leave to enter when those were in force. The only
expectation which applicants should have is that the rules and
policies which
are in force when their application is decided will be correctly
applied to them.

Indeed, it has never been guaranteed that applicants would qualify
for
further or indefinite leave to remain, so there has always been the
risk of not
qualifying for further leave. We have merely tightened up the rules.
I also do
not believe that this is incompatible with the requirement under
HSMP to have
made the UK your main home. This does not require the severing of all
connections with the country of origin and refers to the need to
make the UK
your main home during the course of your leave, which is necessary
for highly
skilled migrants.

As you know, we have introduced extensive transitional arrangements
to
ensure that we retain many of the talented people who will not pass
the new
points test for extension applications. These cater both for the
self-employed
and independent contractors, and make the process of switching into
work
permit employment for those who have been in employment easier. I am
satisfied that this will allow the vast majority of people who have
been
economically active, but who will not pass the points test, to be
granted further
leave to remain.

The statement in the consultation document on the PBS that HSMP
Participants and work permit holders will be able to qualify for
permanent
Residence remains correct. That statement did not, however, imply
that the qualifying criteria for grants of leave under those
categories would remain
Unchanged.

I note your concerns about the introduction into the two new
prescribed
forms of a declaration that applicants recognise that the
Immigration Rules
may change during the course of their leave. This does not introduce
a new
power. As I explain above, we are already able to change the rules
in this
manner. This merely makes it explicitly clear to the applicant that
this is
possible, and so is in the interests of applicants. The introduction
of this
clause is not intended to justify the current changes, nor does it
imply that
applicants would not have been aware of this possibility beforehand.
The
power which this clause describes is not about changing 'the basis
of [the
applicant's] status at any point in the future without any notice at
all', as you
write. Unless there are individual reasons to curtail somebody's
leave, which
do not relate to broad policy changes, applicants will always be
able to
complete their existing leave. The issue in this case is about
future grants of
leave. I understand that you feel that there should have been
consultation
about the introduction of this clause. It would not be practicable
for us to
consult on the introduction of every new clause into a form,
especially when
the clause relates to the exercise of an existing power.

New attributes

You have raised a number of issues concerning the changes to the
points
scoring criteria.

We have removed the points for work experience in favour of those for
previous earnings. When drawing up policy before the publication of
the PBS Command Paper, my officials carried out an analysis of
existing HSMP participants at the further leave to remain stage.
Those applicants who had scored points for previous salary were
earning significantly more than those who had not, and those who had
not (those who tended to score the majority of their points on the
basis of previous work experience) were often not in highly skilled
employment. We believe that the best judge of whether an applicant
has the appropriate experience to succeed in the labour market is
an employer, rather than an immigration official.

People with work experience but a lower previous salary are welcome
to apply for a work permit; their prospective employer will often
offer them a job on this basis. This is reflected in the responses
to the consultation. The consultation response covered both Tiers 1
and 2, and the emphasis on the importance of work experience as
opposed to salary is likely to be more in relation to Tier 2. This
was the impression which my officials gained from their analysis of
the consultation responses. Finally, previous salary is a
much clearer, more objective attribute than work experience, and the
responses to the consultation listed objectivity as the most
important factor in drawing up the new system.

We have emphasised the degree requirement because we are satisfied
that those applicants with degrees are likely to be those who best
meet the aims of the HSMP. Applicants may also apply on the basis of
equivalent level professional qualifications and those without a
degree may apply under other categories of the Immigration Rules. We
have included points for age in order to reward young, highly
skilled migrants who have good salaries for their age, but who may
struggle to gain enough previous salary points because of their
lack of work experience. The inclusion of points for age is a natural
consequence of the inclusion of those for previous salary.

The Home Office has not made misleading statements about the
inclusion of work experience as an attribute, nor have we ignored the
responses to the consultation. As I have mentioned, the responses
about previous work experience in the consultation are likely to
have related more to Tier 2. We gave very strong consideration to
the consultation responses, but we may sometimes take a different
view, particularly if our analysis has led to
different conclusions. Any comments on work experience in the five
year
strategy reflected our thinking at that time and predated that
analysis - had
we already made a definite decision in February 2005 that points
would be
included for certain factors, this would have made the consultation
superfluous.

It is correct that those who switch into another category will not
be able to
use their previous leave under HSMP to qualify for settlement.
Although I am
aware that this may cause frustration to some people, the
Immigration Rules
are drafted in this way (and have been for some time) because those
switching from HSMP into another route may not have been economically
active during their HSMP leave.

Any set of attributes which we choose is likely to exclude some
highly skilled people. I am satisfied that the new requirements for
HSMP will exclude as few of these people as possible and that they
contain sufficient flexibility to cater for talented people from
across the world.

I do understand your concerns and I realise that the introduction of
these changes may at first lead to some uncertainty amongst those
who apply for the HSMP. However, I am satisfied that these changes
strike the correct balance between the need to address the needs of
HSMP applicants with the need to carry out policies which are in the
interests of the UK.

For the reasons which I have set out, I am afraid that I cannot
agree that the changes be suspended pending formal consultation, or
that the old rules for extension applications be applied to those
already in the UK. Regarding your request for confirmation that at
least twenty-one days' notice be given for all future Rules changes,
we will always endeavour to give this notice unless there are strong
reasons not to, as there were in this case.

___________________________________________________

rella
Member
Posts: 196
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2004 1:59 am

Post by rella » Wed Nov 29, 2006 12:04 am

Where did this response from the HO come from?

I can understand (to some degree) them not wanting to announce the changes to keep from getting flooded with NEW HSMP applications. But obviously, those applying for extension can't flood the HO, because leave expires when it does, not when you want it to. They could've given one year notice for FLR at the very least, so that people would have at least that long to plan on how to meet the new requirements.

ATBPLC
Junior Member
Posts: 98
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 7:33 pm

Post by ATBPLC » Wed Nov 29, 2006 12:30 am

this letter is
the transcript of comments made by Liam Byrne to a ILPA lawyer,

lanr3e
Junior Member
Posts: 86
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:14 pm
Location: TELFORD

Post by lanr3e » Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:12 am

ATBPLC
Regarding the issue of settlement after 5 years, what you said also occured to me 2 days ago that the 5 year requirement for settlement starts counting from the day the visa gets activated i.e the day the individual get's into the country and not when it was issued. A way out of that potential loop hole is to reapply for HSMP towards the end of the FLR. But it only means that one will have to meet the requirements at that time (that's if HSMP has not been scraped). If successful, then the individual can amalgate the time spent in the previous HSMP. That's the only way out!!
(or switch to Work permits...but from the transcripts below, it appears that the Minister of State is suggesting that when people switch from HSMP to any other category, the time spent under HSMP will not be amalgated for settlement purposes, under the new category...in the words of the minister:
"It is correct that those who switch into another category will not be able to use their previous leave under HSMP to qualify for settlement. Although I am aware that this may cause frustration to some people, the Immigration Rules are drafted in this way (and have been for some time) because those switching from HSMP into another route may not have been economically active during their HSMP leave."
Does that apply to people who switch from HSMP to Work Permits? If it does, then that's really scary....they as well ask us to return our visas and tell us to go home!!!!

jd
Member of Standing
Posts: 378
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 12:54 pm

Post by jd » Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:36 am

There must be some way out.. anyone else please..

hari15
Member of Standing
Posts: 362
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 3:44 pm

Post by hari15 » Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:38 am

The biggest mistake was done by me I think :(

I am already in UK under workpermit for past 2 years 4 months..

I got a new job offer and the new employer was even ready to transfer my workpermit for another 3 years (so straight route to ILR, no problem at all)

But I told that employer let me try for HSMP (my bad time :( ) and they agreed. I was in a illusion that HSMP is better than wp, since it have more freedom. That time this points for extension scheme was not introduced

I also got HSMP approval under old scheme just last week (may be this is the most bad time :cry: )

So now I may get 2 years FLR on HSMP

2.4 Years + 2 years not making me 5 years :roll:

So again I have to apply for extension... as of now I need 2000£ more salary per annum to qualify for extension :( . Even if I get that whats the guarantee that home office again wont change rules at last moment :(

If I again switch to wp after 4.5 years, do I need to again start from the beginning? :cry:

I think I made blunder by switching from wp to HSMP :(

I am saying frankly, if you are already under wp, wp transfer is better than HSMP. If a employer sponser you wp, please go for that, dont get HSMP and struck like me :(
Last edited by hari15 on Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:42 am, edited 3 times in total.

ATBPLC
Junior Member
Posts: 98
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 7:33 pm

Post by ATBPLC » Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:38 am

This is daylight robbery. Even getting employers to apply for WP cant be easy, and as we are praying towards that, particularly the 1+3+1 group, then this bombshell.

This is clear, we have used and to be dumbed.

lanr3e
Junior Member
Posts: 86
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:14 pm
Location: TELFORD

Post by lanr3e » Wed Nov 29, 2006 11:03 am

What I see from this impending chaos is that we are all under attack from our hosts. They keep droping these bombshells in such a subtle manner that alot of people don't know what 's has hit them or what will hit them. Look at the 5 year requirement for settlement, a lot of people who took time to relocate to UK are not aware of the potential problem they are going to face in the future....for the present, they introduced some very mean changes to HSMP and offered us the chance to switch and now they dont want to add the time we have spent under HSMP for settlement...This is injustice of the highest order!....I tell you all...it has all been planned right from the begining or how else do we explain all that's been happening in the last 3 weeks?

I dare say that we should fight back with all our might....we should take the fight from the Physical to the Spiritual, from the Spiritual to the Metaphysical....they cannot just use us and dump us...it's simply slavery!!!

rella
Member
Posts: 196
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2004 1:59 am

Post by rella » Wed Nov 29, 2006 11:38 am

The one thing that's sort of funny in this is that by the HO's very own criteria, they've selected for bright people who are decent wage earners -- meaning people who will understand the signifance of the rule changes, be smart enough to research the law and all of their options and have enough money as a group to legally challenge the rule changes. If they're going to single out a group to pick on, they chose a group who will be the hardest to push around.

Why do they keep targeting their highly skilled? Why the doctors? Why HSMP?

NationOne
Junior Member
Posts: 55
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 1:01 am

Re: Weird - FLR 2+3+1

Post by NationOne » Wed Nov 29, 2006 11:43 am

Hey guys, noone has answered my original query for which I started this thread. This thread got sidetracked into something else. Would appreciate a response to my particular difficulty please!!!

NationOne wrote:I've got a really wierd problem. One for the experts.

1. I got my HSMP EC in March 2004. Initial entry was stamped for 2 years!! According to the rules at that time it should have been for 1 year.

2. In March 2005, I applied for FLR because under the rules at that time, I am supposed to apply for FLR after one year, irrespective of the visa stamp. HO gave me FLR for 3 years (until March 2008).

3. Then, they changed the goddamn rules- ILR 4->5 years. So I have to apply for FLR again in March 2008.

4. But my fear is. HO may tell me - "You got 2+3 years visa stamp. So how can you apply for FLR under the HSMP scheme again? Your application is rejected"

I know I am speculating about the worst case that can happen in 2008, but this is giving me sleepless nights. Would appreciate if anyone can share their insights.

rg1
Member of Standing
Posts: 298
Joined: Tue Apr 11, 2006 4:08 pm

Post by rg1 » Wed Nov 29, 2006 11:49 am

You have till 2008 for not to worry about.
Nobody can say what will be the rules by then.

HSMP = Horrible Slavery & Misery Program (just another name of modern day slave trade)

rella
Member
Posts: 196
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2004 1:59 am

Post by rella » Wed Nov 29, 2006 11:53 am

I don't think anyone knows and answer to your question. And it'd only be guessing if we tried to answer.

Before these new rules changes, I'd say that they'd be cool about it and you'd get through with no problem. As it is now... I think it's in your favour that things will calm down a bit before you have to apply. I think that the current environment -- at least after everything reopens on 5th of Dec -- is going to be crazy and like a hornet's nest. Everything will probably be settled down a lot by the time your visa expires.

If you are meeting the 75 points and you explain very clearly in you covering letter what your circumstances are, I think you'll be ok.

Sorry that you're having to worry about these things, due to them messing up in the first place. You can show by your actions that you've gone out of your way to try to follow the rules, even when you could've gotten an extra year out it and they likely wouldn't have noticed. That is in your favour, IMO.

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