Urgent!! Non-EU spouse Treaty Rights Application dilemma

[EUspouse82]

Hi All,

I am inquiring on behalf of a friend who is married to a French citizen and both living in Ireland. She applied for Non EU residence permit as the spouse of an European in March 2012 and was sent an acknowledgement letter by INIS but they requested for further documents in relation to the application. They requested for:

1. A recent Tax certificate as proof of employment despite providing an employment contract and payslips; anyway the spouse has since requested for one and is on the way from the revenue office.

2. Secondly they asked for further proof of residence, they initially submitted original utility bills and rental contracts ((both in their names)) but the INIS insist on a letter from the private residential board- dont know what that is.

3. And the most intriguing issue is she applied in March and was sent an acknowledgement letter confirming the reciept of the application on 23rd of march 2012. The assumption is that the six months application period will expire in September 2012 but they wrote to her that the application period expires in October 2012 which is 7 months from date of application. Is this legal?

I will appreciate your comments, advise and insights.

Many thanks

[agniukas]

I don't see anything strange in there. Everyone is being asked for the same documents.
1. Tax credits cert can be submitted when available
2. the landlord has to register their tenancy with PRTB. The PRTB letters then have to be submitted when available.
3. I would query the date of application by email or post to EUTR section. Just to be on the safe side. It's usually 6 months. Chances are it was only a human error, which could be easily corrected.
Good luck

[EUspouse82]

I don't see anything strange in there. Everyone is being asked for the same documents.
1. Tax credits cert can be submitted when available
2. the landlord has to register their tenancy with PRTB. The PRTB letters then have to be submitted when available.
3. I would query the date of application by email or post to EUTR section. Just to be on the safe side. It's usually 6 months. Chances are it was only a human error, which could be easily corrected.
Good luck

Thanks for your input Agniukas.

The main concern was the application expiry date which you have clarified there. In relation to the PRTB issue, my friend and her spouse currently rent from a local council authority, are these councils registered with the PTRB as well?

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

It's always worth going back to what the directive says...

For the EU national, all that is required for a certificate of application is the EU's passport or national ID card and in the case of a worker, proof that they are employed, which is done thus:-

Article 8.3

a confirmation of engagement from the employer or a certificate of employment, or
proof that they are self-employed persons;

Ref article 10

For the non-EU spouse all that is required for a residence card is the COA (or if there is none, the same requirements as if there were), their passport and marriage certificate.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

1. A recent Tax certificate as proof of employment despite providing an employment contract and payslips; anyway the spouse has since requested for one and is on the way from the revenue office.

That might be one way of proving that one is employed, but it is not mandatory and can be proved by other means.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

2. Secondly they asked for further proof of residence, they initially submitted original utility bills and rental contracts ((both in their names)) but the INIS insist on a letter from the private residential board- dont know what that is.

No proof of residence is mentioned in the directive. None, it's simply not there.

Well on second thoughts, it might be there a little bit, since Ireland doesn't have a registration system.

t

he registration certificate or, in the absence of a registration system, any other proof of residence in the host Member State of the Union citizen whom they are accompanying or joining;

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

3. And the most intriguing issue is she applied in March and was sent an acknowledgement letter confirming the reciept of the application on 23rd of march 2012. The assumption is that the six months application period will expire in September 2012 but they wrote to her that the application period expires in October 2012 which is 7 months from date of application. Is this legal?

Perhaps they can't count.

[EUspouse82]

3. And the most intriguing issue is she applied in March and was sent an acknowledgement letter confirming the reciept of the application on 23rd of march 2012. The assumption is that the six months application period will expire in September 2012 but they wrote to her that the application period expires in October 2012 which is 7 months from date of application. Is this legal?

Perhaps they can't count.

Thanks EUsmile ,

I think like Agnuikas said it may be case of human error but we would see and I will update everyone of further developments.

I totally agree with you that asking for documentation beyond those required under the directive is a bit disingenuous but as Agnuikas mentioned- these are standard requirements by INIS. I was actually perplexed when I found out they wanted further proof of residence after they provided a rental contract and utility bills in both their names. I suspect it is just a typically bureaucratic practise.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

...beyond those required under the directive is a bit disingenuous...

I would say illegal...

[knapps]

one proof of residence is sufficient. A bill suffice the requirements of residence

[walrusgumble]

Hi All,

I am inquiring on behalf of a friend who is married to a French citizen and both living in Ireland. She applied for Non EU residence permit as the spouse of an European in March 2012 and was sent an acknowledgement letter by INIS but they requested for further documents in relation to the application. They requested for:

1. A recent Tax certificate as proof of employment despite providing an employment contract and payslips; anyway the spouse has since requested for one and is on the way from the revenue office.

The reason for this is because, payslips and employment contracts can be faked. It is known to have happened. No real panic there, you should be fine

2. Secondly they asked for further proof of residence, they initially submitted original utility bills and rental contracts ((both in their names)) but the INIS insist on a letter from the private residential board- dont know what that is.

Landlords are suppose to register their tenants with Private Residential Tenancy Board. Maybe the landlord did not register you, not your fault. Just find out and tell department

3. And the most intriguing issue is she applied in March and was sent an acknowledgement letter confirming the reciept of the application on 23rd of march 2012. The assumption is that the six months application period will expire in September 2012 but they wrote to her that the application period expires in October 2012 which is 7 months from date of application. Is this legal?

You failed to provide FULL documents actually required, hence the month delay

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Recital 14

(14) The supporting documents required by the competent authorities for the issuing of a registration certificate or of a residence card should be comprehensively specified in order to avoid divergent administrative practices or interpretations constituting an undue obstacle to the exercise of the right of residence by Union citizens and their family members.

And they are in article 10

2. For the residence card to be issued, Member States shall require presentation of the following documents:
(a) a valid passport;
(b) a document attesting to the existence of a family relationship or of a registered partnership;
(c) the registration certificate or, in the absence of a registration system, any other proof of residence in the host Member State of the Union citizen whom they are accompanying or joining;

[walrusgumble]

Recital 14

(14) The supporting documents required by the competent authorities for the issuing of a registration certificate or of a residence card should be comprehensively specified in order to avoid divergent administrative practices or interpretations constituting an undue obstacle to the exercise of the right of residence by Union citizens and their family members.

And they are in article 10

2. For the residence card to be issued, Member States shall require presentation of the following documents:
(a) a valid passport;
(b) a document attesting to the existence of a family relationship or of a registered partnership;
(c) the registration certificate or, in the absence of a registration system, any other proof of residence in the host Member State of the Union citizen whom they are accompanying or joining;

Yes, and all of this is complied with if you properly read the Application form and the list of documents required.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Yes, and all of this is complied with if you properly read the Application form and the list of documents required.

I'm not sure I understand. To me, it would appear that the authorities are requesting or demanding documentation in excess of those specified in the directive.

[dania]

Yes, and all of this is complied with if you properly read the Application form and the list of documents required.

I'm not sure I understand. To me, it would appear that the authorities are requesting or demanding documentation in excess of those specified in the directive.[/quote
i agree totally

[walrusgumble]

Yes, and all of this is complied with if you properly read the Application form and the list of documents required.

I'm not sure I understand. To me, it would appear that the authorities are requesting or demanding documentation in excess of those specified in the directive.

Explain.

They are not

The Commission Guidelines have also stated that the Authorities are entitled to ask for this stuff

Sound like your protesting. Only protesters have something to hid.

I have explained why the PRTB letter is required (proof of residency), and other documents. If some application stop cheating in their applications, then others would not have to provide so much.

The documents requested are basic proofs. Very easy to obtain

Return to your citing

"14) The supporting documents required by the competent authorities for the issuing of a registration certificate or of a residence card should be comprehensively specified in order to avoid divergent administrative practices or interpretations constituting an undue obstacle to the exercise of the right of residence by Union citizens and their family members."

That is done , listed at the back of the application form. These documents are easily obtainable

"2. For the residence card to be issued, Member States shall require presentation of the following documents:
(a) a valid passport;
(b) a document attesting to the existence of a family relationship or of a registered partnership;
(c) the registration certificate or, in the absence of a registration system, any other proof of residence in the host Member State of the Union citizen whom they are accompanying or joining;"

Requirement (b) and (c) consist of evidence of work (P60, payslips, letter from boss), evidence of living together (lease, utility bills, PRTB letter) banks statement ( proof of residency and proof of funds such as wages)

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Explain.

I believed I had.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

The Commission Guidelines have also stated that the Authorities are entitled to ask for this stuff

Could you provide a reference for this perhaps?

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Return to your citing

"14) The supporting documents required by the competent authorities for the issuing of a registration certificate or of a residence card should be comprehensively specified in order to avoid divergent administrative practices or interpretations constituting an undue obstacle to the exercise of the right of residence by Union citizens and their family members."

That is done , listed at the back of the application form. These documents are easily obtainable

If you re-read recital 14, there is another interpretation and that is that member states are required to use the same supporting documentation to avoid divergent practices.

I believe this interpretation to be correct.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

What are the basic requirements for the spouse of a worker? They are as follows:

Step 1: EU citizen applies for a registration certificate

The EU worker is required to present his passport (or ID card) and confirmation of employment (letter of engagement) in order to receive a registration certificate. That's two documents in order to get one registration certificate. The registration certificate shall state the name and address of the applicant. NB, no proof of address required, just the passport and employer's letter.

Step 2 EU spouse applies for a residence card

The spouse of the EU worker is required to present her passport, marriage certificate and her spouse's residence certificate.

That's it, nothing else. No forms, utility bills, P60s, etc are specified. It is true that the applicant can prove entitlement by other means, but the basic requirements are as per the outline in step 1 and step 2 above.

[agniukas]

there is no residence certificate for the EU citizen in ireland. Permanent residence certificate EU2 is issued after 5 years only.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

there is no residence certificate for the EU citizen in ireland. Permanent residence certificate EU2 is issued after 5 years only.

I was aware of that.

[walrusgumble]

The Commission Guidelines have also stated that the Authorities are entitled to ask for this stuff

Could you provide a reference for this perhaps?

NExt time, do your own research

There seems to be alot of protesting about obtaining relatively simply set of documents. WHat is wrong, got something to hide boys?

What other documents can you provide in order to prove beyond dispute
(a) You live together as husband and wife (b) She works / self Employed etc (c) there is financial stability - you really are truly exercising EU rights.

How are the documents required, a burden or barrier? Everyone else does not seem to have a problem getting these documents eventually. How are the documents required excessive? These documents are ESSENTIAL to prove "de facto relationships" and to prove dependency of other family members (as per Article 3.2) , surely they are legitimate for married couples . You make a statement you must provide proofs.

Dependency, proofs for example, by any appropriate means, as per the courts (Eg Jia case) http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... FIN:EN:PDF

You will note at page 6 a nugget of hope, but that only concerns initial entry into the State, as you already have the first 3 months without restrictions

Page 7 of the Guideline, as you note from Articles 8 and 10, the list of documents are exhaustive, but, the documents I suggested actually cover this. It is within the remit of the documents required / allowed - If you think otherwise, specify the basis for such ridiculous notions

Note here

"Member States may require that documents be translated, notarised or legalised where the
national authority concerned cannot understand the language in which the particular
document is written, or have a suspicion about the authenticity of the issuing authority. "

Thus, the State have become aware of fake landlord letters, thus they ask for PRTB (by the way, if one did not have that, that can not be a ground to refuse!) and REvenue documents as fake payslips are not uncommon.

A proportionality test can only be done, fairly by looking at all the circumstances, the documents I listed will prove beyond dispute what one is saying. With these documents, it will be difficult for the state to suggest
any notion of fraud / sham marriage etc or even that the activities of the EU citizen are not genuine and effective

If you can provide alternatives, then fine, away you go. So long as the documents do not provide barriers and obstacles the State can ask away. Any suggestions of these documents being an obstacle (bar PRTB letter) are liars!


This is the report on Ireland's transposition of the Directive. THere are some extremely grossly inaccurate comments made at the beginning of the report regarding provisions on removal (this is done at Immigration Act 1999). There are comments regarding documents, but NOTHING regarding requesting the documents I mentioned specifically!

The Irish report stated that documents at schedule 2 of the Irish 2006 Regulations, at 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 16 , 17 and 19. are not relevant to
establishing the family connection which is the sole basis for issuing the residence (As oppose to proof of the Exercising of EU rights)
Nothing there falls foul
http://ec.europa.eu/justice/doc_centre/ ... udy_en.pdf
http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/SI656of2 ... of2006.pdf


http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... FIN:EN:PDF

[walrusgumble]

1. A recent Tax certificate as proof of employment despite providing an employment contract and payslips; anyway the spouse has since requested for one and is on the way from the revenue office.

That might be one way of proving that one is employed, but it is not mandatory and can be proved by other means.

It can, but the revenue evidence will proof beyond dispute that one is working lawfully, and that the documents one provides are legitimate

[walrusgumble]

...beyond those required under the directive is a bit disingenuous...

I would say illegal...

On what grounds?

Any clown can provide a "lease" and "letter from Landlord". It is possibly to fake these documents

Granted PRTB letters can not be a ground to refuse an application, but they are useful, along with a few utility bills (ideally in both names- not crucial)