Can I (UK National)& wife (non EU National) live in Irel

[st pauli]

What is this 90 days in relation to?

[st pauli]

well, without a visa, his spouse won't be able to leave Ethiopia, would she?

Yes is what I imagined would be the case. I obviously can't just say...''yeah, I'm gonna exercise my treaty rights in Ireland and she's coming with me'' and have that be it, as we're motioned onto the plane with a smile. So I'm wondering what paperwork she needs in the first place, to get to Ireland with me before I've even registered to live there. I can't imagine a standard tourist visa would be appropriate for this.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

So I'm wondering what paperwork she needs in the first place, to get to Ireland with me before I've even registered to live there. I can't imagine a standard tourist visa would be appropriate for this.

She needs only the equivalent of a tourist visa. You need to provide a copy of your passport, and the marriage certificate. Done.

http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2007/04 ... u-citizen/



The requirements for the initial entry visa are discussed extensively in ECJ case C-157/03, Commission v Spain [2005]. The judge notes:

36. Therefore, those family members are required to carry out the formalities governing residence before entering Spanish territory, failing which the issue of the [visa] will be refused.

The judge then prohibits Spain from requiring the formalities of a Residence application as part of the visa process:

38. Consequently, the residence visa requirement laid down by the Spanish rules in order to obtain a residence permit and, consequently, the refusal to issue such a permit to a third-country national who is a member of the family of a Community national, on the ground that he or she should first have applied for a residence visa at the Spanish consulate in their last place of domicile thus constitutes a measure contrary to the provisions of Directives 68/360, 73/148 and 90/365.

Directive 2004/38/EC is also clear that the formalities of a Registration Certificate for the EU citizen and a Residence Card for the non-EU family member can only be required after the person has been resident in the host member state for at least three months:

Article 8 - Administrative formalities for Union citizens
1. Without prejudice to Article 5(5), for periods of residence longer than three months, the host Member State may require Union citizens to register with the relevant authorities.
2. The deadline for registration may not be less than three months from the date of arrival.

Article 9- Administrative formalities for family members who are not nationals of a Member State
1. Member States shall issue a residence card to family members of a Union citizen who are not nationals of a Member State, where the planned period of residence is for more than three months.
2. The deadline for submitting the residence card application may not be less than three months from the date of arrival.

[st pauli]

Thanks a lot for that, article 38 in particular there makes things clearer.

So no registration is required whatsoever for 90 days, but from what I can gather after that time you need to either have a job or show that you can support yourself without becoming a burden on social services - how much savings tends to be sufficient to demonstrate that?

[walrusgumble]

Thanks a lot for that, article 38 in particular there makes things clearer.

So no registration is required whatsoever for 90 days, but from what I can gather after that time you need to either have a job or show that you can support yourself without becoming a burden on social services - how much savings tends to be sufficient to demonstrate that?

There is no limit. Please see Article 8 of the Directive 2004 / 38 EC.

Then google the Commission Guidelines on Interpreting Directive 2004 / 38 EC. Commission Opinion Paper. Summer 2009

[Ben]

From what I understand is that even if needed too you would be entilited to housing Benefit in Ireland if you needed it which would be helpful as it would give you time to find a job as its almost impossible to just fly into Ireland and have a job waiting there.

No Housing Benefit in Ireland I'm afraid. We have Rent Supplement, but it's a pittance and extremely restrictive.

[kay275]

Sorry for bumping this up...

how long do I need to be working in Ireland before I can apply for my spouse visa??

Do we have to live together in Ireland for 6 months before we can apply for a residence permit??

[Freda]

Just to add to this.. I am a UK citizen and my husband is Tanzanian. I too am hoping Ireland will be a good alternative to avoid UK immigration. I am currently in the UK, he is in Tanzania, and next week I am going to Dublin. We will then apply for the 'Spouse/Child - Qualifying Family Members who wish to JOIN EU Citizen in Ireland' Visa (see http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/Jo ... EU_Citizen), and once approved he can fly over and join me.

I really hope this works.

The Visa application states there must be 'Evidence that the EU Citizen spouse is lawfully in Ireland'. Now my plan is to stay in a hostel or with friends until the visa is approved, as I don't want to spend all that money on a deposit and flat, only to have the visa denied and me leave Ireland to go see him in Tanzania.

So my question is, what would be acceptable evidence of being there apart from a flat lease, or work contract (I have no job there yet either). Would a letter from my friend, or from the hostel, be sufficient? Or my flight details? What are they looking for - a photo of me beside the sign for Dublin?

Anyone done this before?

[Ben]

Yes that's fine. For the first three months following your entry to Ireland, your right of residence is unconditional. Your spouse is entitled to join you. All that needs to be submitted by your spouse in order to receive the EUTR visa to which he is entitled, is his passport, your passport (or copy) and your marriage certificate.

[Monifé]

From what I understand is that even if needed too you would be entilited to housing Benefit in Ireland if you needed it which would be helpful as it would give you time to find a job as its almost impossible to just fly into Ireland and have a job waiting there.

No Housing Benefit in Ireland I'm afraid. We have Rent Supplement, but it's a pittance and extremely restrictive.

A pittance? (Going slightly off topic) I have to strongly disagree that Rent Supplement is "a pittance." It is HUGE. If I was entitled to Rent Supplement, which I am not because neither me nor my husband are in receipt of any social welfare benefits, we would be able to rent a nice 2 bedroom apartment and only have to contribute €30 per month towards it. Rent supplement is what is propping up the extortionate rental prices.

[Ben]

A pittance? (Going slightly off topic) I have to strongly disagree that Rent Supplement is "a pittance." It is HUGE. If I was entitled to Rent Supplement, which I am not because neither me nor my husband are in receipt of any social welfare benefits, we would be able to rent a nice 2 bedroom apartment and only have to contribute €30 per month towards it. Rent supplement is what is propping up the extortionate rental prices.

I don't know who's been telling you that. As a couple, the very least you'd have to pay would be €151.67 per month.

In the example of a couple with two children, both in receipt of Jobseeker's Benefit and living in Waterford (€550 max rent):

Weekly combined JB income = €435.60.
Deduct SWA rate of €370.40 = €65.20 (weekly assessable income).
Add Household Contribution of €35.00 = €100.20 total contribution to rent.

550 * 12 / 52 = €126.92 weekly equivalent rent.
Less €100.20 total contribution to rent = €26.72 weekly rent supplement award.

€26.72 = €115.80 Rent Supplement per month. UK Housing Benefit, for a similar sized city in the UK, would be £495 (€629) per month - nearly 5 and a half times a much.

[st pauli]

Just to add to this.. I am a UK citizen and my husband is Tanzanian. I too am hoping Ireland will be a good alternative to avoid UK immigration. I am currently in the UK, he is in Tanzania, and next week I am going to Dublin. We will then apply for the 'Spouse/Child - Qualifying Family Members who wish to JOIN EU Citizen in Ireland' Visa (see http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/Jo ... EU_Citizen), and once approved he can fly over and join me.

I really hope this works.

The Visa application states there must be 'Evidence that the EU Citizen spouse is lawfully in Ireland'. Now my plan is to stay in a hostel or with friends until the visa is approved, as I don't want to spend all that money on a deposit and flat, only to have the visa denied and me leave Ireland to go see him in Tanzania.

So my question is, what would be acceptable evidence of being there apart from a flat lease, or work contract (I have no job there yet either). Would a letter from my friend, or from the hostel, be sufficient? Or my flight details? What are they looking for - a photo of me beside the sign for Dublin?

Anyone done this before?

I'm still trying to wrap my head around all this EU immigration stuff with relation to Ireland - am I right that this visa is different to the EU4FAM card, which takes quite a few months to get? And the main difference is that on the entry visa (the one you're applying for now for your husband) the spouse is not permitted to WORK, just to remain?

This is the impression I've got but I''m suffering from information overload on the whole thing.

[Ben]

This is the impression I've got but I''m suffering from information overload on the whole thing.

Why not start a thread with your query? Someone will be happy to help.

[fibonacci0044]

hi

can any one tell me in order to be a economic migrant worker can i be self employed in Ireland instead of doing a job

or by running my own business will come in the context of being a economic migrant worker?

like for eg :WILL Having an eBay Trading Account running in Ireland is considered as being self employed, Like in UK?

very much thanks

[Freda]

Yes that's fine. For the first three months following your entry to Ireland, your right of residence is unconditional. Your spouse is entitled to join you. All that needs to be submitted by your spouse in order to receive the EUTR visa to which he is entitled, is his passport, your passport (or copy) and your marriage certificate.

Just wanted to say we got the Visa wooP!! They asked for bank statements, payslips etc so I wrote them an angry letter quoting bits out of the EU directive saying none of that is needed and they processed, and approved, it without, Hoooraaaaayyy

[st pauli]

Yes that's fine. For the first three months following your entry to Ireland, your right of residence is unconditional. Your spouse is entitled to join you. All that needs to be submitted by your spouse in order to receive the EUTR visa to which he is entitled, is his passport, your passport (or copy) and your marriage certificate.

Just wanted to say we got the Visa wooP!! They asked for bank statements, payslips etc so I wrote them an angry letter quoting bits out of the EU directive saying none of that is needed and they processed, and approved, it without, Hoooraaaaayyy

Congrats, is your spouse entitled to work on this visa?

[fibonacci0044]

What i meant to ask is

to be a economic migrant worker what is included in exercising treaty rights
in a member eu state

[st pauli]

What i meant to ask is

to be a economic migrant worker what is included in exercising treaty rights
in a member eu state

If you're asking in respect of Surinder Singh, then I've heard that only employment counts for this - not studying or self-sufficiency and I *think* not self-employment either.

I'd wait for someone more knowledgeable than myself to confirm though, this is simply what I've seen repeated a couple of times.

[fibonacci0044]

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/i ... ing-111172

From: Nicholas McArthur

7 August 2010

In this he stated

The SURINDER SINGH judgement is incorporated into the 2006
Regulations in regulation 9, and:
•
is confined to those cases where a British national has worked or
been self established in an EEA State.


but i need to have a confirmation that my British spouse could count towards being self employed

It is better to know you can fly before jumping

[fibonacci0044]

This information comes from the UKBA's website

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/polic ... 2/#header4

EUN2.14 Can family members of British citizens qualify for an EEA family permit? ('Surinder Singh' cases)
As a general rule, family members of British citizens do not qualify for an EEA family permit. Article 3 of the Directive essentially says that an EEA national cannot be considered as exercising freedom of movement in their own State -

This Directive shall apply to all Union citizens who move to or reside in a Member State other than that of which they are a national, and to their family members as defined in point 2 of Article 2 who accompany or join them.

However, where an EEA national has exercised a treaty right in another Member State as a worker or self-employed and they wish to return to their own State having exercised that right, certain provisions may apply in order for their non-EEA family members to qualify under the EEA Regulations.

A British national and his / her non-EEA national family members can only benefit from free movement rights if they meet the criteria established in the ECJ case of Surinder Singh. The case stated that nationals of a Member State who are exercising an economic Treaty right (that is, as a worker or self-employed person) in another Member State will, on return to their home state, be entitled to bring their non-EEA family members to join them under EC law.

Example: A British national is exercising an economic Treaty right in Germany and living with his non-EEA national spouse and children. On the British national's return to the UK, his non-EEA national family members can apply for an EEA family permit to join him under EC law.

The Surinder Singh judgement is incorporated into the EEA Regulations in Regulation 9. Family members of British nationals who meet the requirements of Regulation 9 are treated as family members of EEA nationals for the purposes of the EEA Regulations.

Applications for EEA family permits must meet the following criteria:

The British citizen must be residing in an EEA Member State as a worker or self-employed person or have been doing so before returning to the UK.
If the family member of the British citizen is their spouse or civil partner, they are living together in the EEA country or must have entered into the marriage or civil partnership and have been living together in the relevant EEA country before the British citizen returned to the UK.
Because EEA nationals have an initial three months right of residence in the UK, there is no requirement for the British national to be a qualified person on arrival. Therefore, an EEA family permit can be issued to the non-EEA national family member of a British national even if they are only visiting the UK with the British national before returning to the Member State where they are resident.
MOST IMPORTANTLY
It does not matter if the only reason the British national went to another Member State was to exercise an economic Treaty right was so that he / she could come back to the UK with his / her family members under EC law.

The ECO should seek advice from ECCCAT where unsure about the decision to be taken in applying the Surinder Singh judgement.

VERY MUCH THANKS TO EVERY ONE

[Ben]

Yes that's fine. For the first three months following your entry to Ireland, your right of residence is unconditional. Your spouse is entitled to join you. All that needs to be submitted by your spouse in order to receive the EUTR visa to which he is entitled, is his passport, your passport (or copy) and your marriage certificate.

Just wanted to say we got the Visa wooP!! They asked for bank statements, payslips etc so I wrote them an angry letter quoting bits out of the EU directive saying none of that is needed and they processed, and approved, it without, Hoooraaaaayyy

Result.

[fibonacci0044]

Good Luck Ben

[Freda]

Yes that's fine. For the first three months following your entry to Ireland, your right of residence is unconditional. Your spouse is entitled to join you. All that needs to be submitted by your spouse in order to receive the EUTR visa to which he is entitled, is his passport, your passport (or copy) and your marriage certificate.

Just wanted to say we got the Visa wooP!! They asked for bank statements, payslips etc so I wrote them an angry letter quoting bits out of the EU directive saying none of that is needed and they processed, and approved, it without, Hoooraaaaayyy

Congrats, is your spouse entitled to work on this visa?

Yes as far as I am aware there are no restrictions at least in the 1st 3 months, if anyone can shed light on this be grateful..

[fibonacci0044]

Is work allowed for the non eu spouse in the starting 3 months?

[st pauli]

Is work allowed for the non eu spouse in the starting 3 months?

Technically yes, proving their eligibility to work can be a challenge though. Depends whether they are given the correct stamp on entry or are able to obtain it later, which seems a bit arbitrary and pot luck from what I can gather.

To add my own question to this solid old topic...if I were to get married to my partner in Addis Ababa (where she is from) and then go to the Irish consulate and ask for a tourist visa for her based on our marriage, would we need to provide any supporting documentation?

I mean we are not applying for a residence card, and as Directive/2004/38/EC (the poster on here) already helpfully explaind, they aren't permitted to apply those formalities prior to the the first three months. HOWEVER if Ireland is anything like the UK, then I would expect a good deal of supporting docs and evidence to be required even for a tourist visa. But then surely she's actually allowed to be Ireland as the lawful spouse of an EEA citizen, so it shouldn't be just like any other tourist visa....right?