Spouse entering UK via living together in EU

frustratedbrit · Post by **frustratedbrit** » Sat Sep 29, 2012 12:59 pm

I live in the UK as a British citizen, but my non-EU wife has been refused a visitor visa and cannot currently join me. We are thinking of applying for a settlement visa, with all the costs and hassles involved. However, I am currently considering taking a job in the EU (in Belgium). I understand that under European case law, I can bring my wife over to the UK if we have lived together in another European Economic Area country whilst I am working there, without having to apply for a visa. Could anyone supply more details about the rules here?

I am already aware of the following UKBA page, but (surprise surprise) it is a little lacking in detail...
http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/eucit ... ts-family/

In particular, I am interested in how long we have to have lived together in another EU country. Also I wonder whether there are restrictions on what form of work I need to have been doing (e.g. does being "self-employed" qualify?, can I even simply having been working for my own company, without necessarily having a customer?). And does anyone know of the relative differences between the EU countries in getting a visa from that country for my wife to join me (I am also considering jobs in Germany, for example)?

Post by **EUsmileWEallsmile** » Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:24 pm

If you work in another member state, your wife can join you there. The procedure is very similar for all member states.

Please read directive 2004/38/EC for details of your rights to live and work in another member state.

After a period of time working, you can move back to the UK. There is no definition of that period of time.

frustratedbrit · Post by **frustratedbrit** » Sat Sep 29, 2012 10:17 pm

Thanks.

Do you know if about 12 months might be long enough?

Post by **Jambo** » Sat Sep 29, 2012 10:39 pm

12 months would be more than enough. People managed to get EEA Family Permit with significantly shorter period.

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Sun Sep 30, 2012 12:21 am

As long as you have been a "worker" in the host member state, then you can return to your home member state. See http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2011/12 ... -a-worker/

Does your spouse normally require a visa to enter Schengen?

frustratedbrit · Post by **frustratedbrit** » Sun Sep 30, 2012 5:40 pm

She's never been to mainland Europe - just the UK twice on visitor visas. I imagine she would have to apply for a visa to accompany me in the country whilst I do the job there.

Do you know whether being an IT contractor (and perhaps not paying taxes in the country where I am based, but paying UK company taxes) counts as being a worker in that country?

Post by **EUsmileWEallsmile** » Sun Sep 30, 2012 7:40 pm

frustratedbrit wrote:She's never been to mainland Europe - just the UK twice on visitor visas. I imagine she would have to apply for a visa to accompany me in the country whilst I do the job there.

Do you know whether being an IT contractor (and perhaps not paying taxes in the country where I am based, but paying UK company taxes) counts as being a worker in that country?

The requirement for a visa is dependent on her nationality.

Providing services in another member state counts as utilising freedom of movement rights.

It would be worth your while reading this.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... FIN:EN:PDF

frustratedbrit · Post by **frustratedbrit** » Sun Sep 30, 2012 8:19 pm

Thanks, this document looks really useful.

She's Vietnamese, by the way. How does that make any difference? Are some non-EEA countries treated differently to others?

Post by **EUsmileWEallsmile** » Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:07 pm

frustratedbrit wrote:Thanks, this document looks really useful.

She's Vietnamese, by the way. How does that make any difference? Are some non-EEA countries treated differently to others?

Yes, some are visa nationals, some are not. If not, no visa required for initial entry. However, there are no differences in terms of rights of residence, etc.

st pauli · Post by **st pauli** » Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:25 am

Jambo wrote:12 months would be more than enough. People managed to get EEA Family Permit with significantly shorter period.

Just out of curiosity, what's the shortest you've heard of?

I'm planning to take this route too, although I think unless you've got significant savings the practicalities and costs of moving twice means it probably has to take 1+ years regardless of any legal right to do it sooner. But I'm interested nonetheless...

Post by **Jambo** » Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:47 am

2.5 months. This was done in Ireland one or two years ago.

The duration is not defined in the regulations but if you want to avoid to fight with UKBA, I would think 6 months would probably satisfy them.

frustratedbrit · Post by **frustratedbrit** » Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:45 pm

If I bring my non-EU family over to the UK after working in Europe, would they be able to receive free NHS treatment and child benefit? I understand that after 5 years they would gain permanent residence status, but would they be eligible before?

Post by **Jambo** » Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:18 pm

NHS - yes as any ordinary resident in the UK.
Child benefit - yes as you are British.

Eligible earlier for what ?

frustratedbrit · Post by **frustratedbrit** » Wed Oct 10, 2012 9:12 pm

What I was asking was would they be eligible for NHS + child benefit (it's my step-child, by the way, not sure if this makes any difference) before they gained permanent residence status (which is after 5 years I understand) after entering the country on an EEA family permit?

Oh yes, another question: do they have to enter the UK directly from mainland Europe, or could they enter from Vietnam after having lived with me in mainland Europe?

Post by **Jambo** » Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:14 pm

frustratedbrit wrote:What I was asking was would they be eligible for NHS + child benefit (it's my step-child, by the way, not sure if this makes any difference) before they gained permanent residence status (which is after 5 years I understand) after entering the country on an EEA family permit?

Yes.

Oh yes, another question: do they have to enter the UK directly from mainland Europe, or could they enter from Vietnam after having lived with me in mainland Europe?

They can enter from anywhere they wish as long as they travelling or joining you.

frustratedbrit · Post by **frustratedbrit** » Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:16 pm

That's fantastic. Thanks so much.

frustratedbrit · Post by **frustratedbrit** » Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:29 pm

Another question: must my family have lived with me at all in the non-UK EEA country, or is the requirement just that I must have lived and worked in the non-UK EEA country?

Post by **Jambo** » Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:27 am

In order to make use of the Surinder Singh route, the HO would expect the family member to live together with the UK national in another EEA state while he works there.

frustratedbrit · Post by **frustratedbrit** » Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:28 am

I suppose I there is a risk that if I do get a job in another EEA country, then my family might not be able to join me there, because of that country's immigration policy. Are there any good resources on the internet for comparing different countries on how difficult it is to bring non-EEA family into EEA countries? I'm looking to answer questions such as: is the UK the hardest? what is required to bring family into Germany or France? etc. I know that I can spend time looking into each country individually, but this is an emormous undertaking, and it would really help if someone has done this already.

Post by **Jambo** » Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:33 am

There is no different immigration policy. It will be under the free movement directive (the "EEA route"). The requirements are very simple and easy to prove (basically passports and a marriage certificate). UK policy might seem the hardest for UK citizens but if you apply under directive 2004/38/EC, the requirements are the same as any other EEA state.

Post by **Obie** » Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:15 am

A growing body of caselaw is suggesting that even children can benefit from Surinder Singh Principle. See Iida. The UK's position is becoming increasingly untenable.

frustratedbrit · Post by **frustratedbrit** » Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:44 am

Jambo, I think you may have misunderstood my question. Before I use the Surinder Singh Principle to bring my non-EEA family into the UK, I first need to be living with them in another EEA country. What I am asking is how easy is it to get non-EEA family into a non-UK EEA country directly on that country's visa system (i.e. not using Directive 2004/38/EC) when I am working in the non-UK EEA country? Are there useful comparisons between EEA countries that have been drawn up?

Alternatively, you didn't misunderstand my question, and you are telling me that I can use the Surinder Singh Principle twice. Firstly to bring them over to the non-UK EEA country to live with me whilst I am doing a job there, and secondly to bring them over to the UK after having lived in the non-UK EEA country. ( I should point out that they were living with me in the UK for 5 months under a visitor visa until 10 months ago. )

Post by **Jambo** » Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:13 am

I didn't misunderstand your question (although I did realise my answer was not very clear after posting).

Basically, you use Directive 2004/38/EC to move with your family anywhere within the EEA (this is using the "standard" section of the directive). You then can use the same directive to return to the UK (this is using the "Surinder Singh" part of the directive).

The principle is the same i.e. you are free to move with your family as much as you wish as long as you exercise treaty rights after 3 months of residence.

The actual evidence required in each stage is different:

- To move to any member state - you don't need anything. Your partner might need an entry visa. The entry visa (if needed) should be free of charge and issued on an accelerated process. Normally just a marriage certificate and a copy of your passport should be enough. Depending on the country, you might need to register with the authorities and your partner can apply for a residence card.
- When you return to the UK (using Surinder Singh), your partner will need to provide to the UK authorities evidence of your work in the EEA state and evidence of residence (both of you).

frustratedbrit · Post by **frustratedbrit** » Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:34 am

...
The actual evidence required in each stage is different:

- To move to any member state - you don't need anything. Your partner might need an entry visa. The entry visa (if needed) should be free of charge and issued on an accelerated process. Normally just a marriage certificate and a copy of your passport should be enough. Depending on the country, you might need to register with the authorities and your partner can apply for a residence card.
...

So the entry visa to the non-UK EEA country (for my wife and stepson) should be free of charge and issued on an accelerated process, even if they are coming from Vietnam and regardless of whether they have resided with me in the EEA before?

Post by **Jambo** » Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:05 am

frustratedbrit wrote: So the entry visa to the non-UK EEA country (for my wife and stepson) should be free of charge and issued on an accelerated process, even if they are coming from Vietnam and regardless of whether they have resided with me in the EEA before?

Correct.

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Spouse entering UK via living together in EU

Spouse entering UK via living together in EU