FAS courses and Social Welfare

[Latintraveller]

I am a British man who has lived in Ireland in the past (around ten years ago) looking to bring my future non-EU wife and her son to Ireland next spring. We both plan to work on a self-employed basis, but due to the economic circumstances we are looking at covering all bases.

My future wife is receiving training at the moment to enhance her skills. I was wondering if she could further enhance her skills by taking a paid FAS course or is that only available to registered unemployed?

On the subject of unemployment I notice that FAS has produced a leaflet for immigrants that mentions "Social Support – advice on Social Welfare". I am wondering why that is being advertised as it is my belief that we could only ever receive child benefit and nothing more.
http://www.fas.ie/NR/rdonlyres/7DA3EACC ... et2012.pdf

One final question is regarding my believe that if I do not earn the Family Income Supplement amount* (which is €506 for couple with one child) that she may be denied a Residents' card. Is that correct? I am sure we could live on less than that amount if we need to. If that is the case and let's say I earn €350 a week and she earns €160 per week (totalling €510) would that satisfy the government?
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/so ... ement.html

* Or in the case of Self Employed people may it be the Supplementary Welfare Allowance amount (which is around €340?) that the guard would assess us against.
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/so ... allow.html

Thanks for your anticipated help

[Brigid from Ireland]

You are entitled to live and work in Ireland. Your entitlement to Social Welfare assistance or benefits is linked to the work you have done in the past, either in Ireland or elsewhere.

You are entitled to have your wife and child join you. Is the child an EU citizen - this may be of critical importance. If the child is an EU citizen, either by birth or by virtue of your adoption of your stepson, then the child and both parents have the right to live in Ireland. In other words, if you adopt the child and make him legally an EU citizen, he and his mother cannot be denied the right to come to Ireland.

Are you currently working or getting social welfare in Britian? This is critical, becasue if you are working as an employee, these contributions may or may not transfer to Ireland. If you have the right type and number of contributions in Britain/EU, then one day of work in Ireland may qualify you for Jobseekers Benefit, as you become the responsibility of the Irish state. That lasts for about a year.

If you do not have contributions that entitle you to benefit, then the next best bet is to get a job for 20 hours a week, as with a child in your care, this gives you an entitlement to Family Income Supplement.

Short version:

1. Adopt the child, making him an EU citizen. If the adoption is under the law of his mothers country, then get the documents translated, and registered as a foreign adoption in either Ireland or UK. This confers upon the child and his mother the right to reside in the EU.
2. Get a minimum wage job, for at least 20 hours a week. Then you can claim Family income supplement, so long as the child is in Ireland.
3. There is entitlement to a wide range of benefits/assistance, regardless of your UK citizenship. Many EU/nonEu citizens get social welfare in Ireland, it is just a matter of meeting certain conditions, none of which are too difficult to meet, if you have studied the relevant law.

[Latintraveller]

Thanks for your reply Bridget. I believe I have sufficient National Insurance credits for the year April 11 to April 12 from the UK as I was working there until Sep 11 when I left for Latin America as a volunteer living off my savings. I left my job voluntarily though.

If my future wife was British/Irish/EU I believe that one way or another we could get government financial help (Ireland tends to help people much more than the UK) until I get the business off the ground. I believe though for non-EU citizens the situation is much more difficult as I understand that the guards do not grant permission for claimants to stay in Ireland (i.e. grounds for deportation).

The idea of having the boy adopted is an interesting one. Laws here are very complicated so maybe I could consider doing that in Ireland (as it is easy to get a visa for him and my future wife to travel in Ireland). Do you know of any potential problems doing it that way?

I also notice the following in the Irish adoption policy "As the child has been deemed to have been born to the adoptive parents, to the extent that one or the other of these parents is an Irish Citizen, the child will automatically gain Irish citizenship if s/he does not already have such". Would this be applied in our case as I am a British citizen?
http://www.adoptionpolicy.org/pdf/eu-ireland.pdf

Regards!

[Brigid from Ireland]

Regarding adoption in Ireland, the first problem is that it will probably cost money. The second is that it will involve you and your wife being assessed by social workers, which is a long process, and difficult, as it is not easy for you to get character references, as you have not been living in Ireland. I know it sounds strange that your wife would need to get permission to adopt her own child, or for her husband to adopt the child, but that is the reality. Major hassle with social workers, also too time consuming for your purposes.

You are a British citizen, so that is of no benefit in terms of your child (adopted or natural) acquiring Irish citizenship. If you have an Irish parent, your adoptive or natural child could acquire Irish citizenship from the grandparent (your parent). If you adopt the child under Irish law, after sufficient residence in Ireland (which I think is about 3 years), then Irish citizenship is likely to be possible for the child. Again,too time consuming, as you need to clock up the residence before the birth/adoption of the child.

The child may gain British citizenship if you adopt, and in practice this is sufficient,as it is EU citizenship that confers rights on both the child and his parents. Check with the British authorities if you consider this route. The mother of an EU citizen child cannot be deported, so that is why I am thinking adoption.

Your comment on having worked in Britian in 2011 is interesting. If you can get the details of this (the formal statement indicating the number of weeks worked, as provided by the British Department) it would be useful to know how many weeks of work in the year 2011, as this will become the relevant tax year for benefit claims made in 2013. If you have sufficient work completed in 2011, this may mean that you can claim benefit in 2013. The best way might be for you to claim your benefit in UK, then transfer it to Ireland. Alternatively one day of paid employment in Ireland may transfer your social insurance record, and allow you to claim benefit in Ireland. It is a complicated area.

By the way, if your work record is better in 2010, it might be advisable to make any benefit claim in 2012.

If you, as the insured worker, are entitled to benefit on the basis of previous work, then your wife and son go on the claim as dependents. 188 for you,124 for her, 30 for the child per week. Unemployment benefit lasts for about 9-12 months, if you qualify for it. Habitual residence is not an issue with benefits, I have no idea what the impact is on residency for your wife.

Leaving the job voluntarily is not important, you can only be disqualified on this basis for nine weeks from the date of leaving the job, and as you left it a year ago, this is unimportant.

If you do not qualify for benefit, then you may apply for assistance. Habitual residence is easier for you to get, as you have lived in Ireland in the past, so you should have a good work contribution record. That does not mean it will be easy, just easier than for those who have never worked in Ireland.

A part time job for you, the EU citizen, would solve all the problems, but that is not easy to get right now.

[Latintraveller]

Thanks for your reply Bridget,

In answer to your question I worked from April 11 to 20 September 11 (with holiday pay it took me into early October). I was paid around £11,500 (plus around £7,500 back pay) for this period and was charged the appropriate National Insurance.

[Brigid from Ireland]

You need the formal statement from the UK, listing the number of weeks worked.

Were you in receipt of benefits/assistance in the UK or anywhere for the rest of the year 2011? Weeks drawing benefits can sometimes be added to your record of weeks working, to count up enough weeks.

In addition, if you don't have enough weeks in 2011, weeks in 2010 can sometimes be used to compensate.

It is very complicated - you literally need the statement from Britain, which will tell you exactly how many weeks are there (either of working or of credits when drawing benefits).

If you had been working in Ireland, the P60 or P45 from the taxman would list the number of weeks, or you could get the record from the Dep. of Social Protection. You need to get the British record and bring it to Ireland with you, as if Ireland requests if from Britian it will delay you claim by about 3 months.

The Irish system is that 39 weeks paid or credited is sufficient, in the relevant year. You don't have 39 paid, but if you added credits by claiming unemployment benefits you may have the 39.

Alternatively 26 paid in 2011 and 26 paid in 2010? Paid not credited, as this is designed to facilitate people who jobshare.

I am assuming that over your lifetime you have 102 weeks paid (2 years worked).

[Latintraveller]

Thanks for replying again.

I understand that with the PAYE British system is based on earning a minimum of £5044 to count as a qualifying year. Other indications show that around £600 or more has to be paid in National Insurance. I know I paid a lot more than that during the year 2011/12! For the previous year I have a full payment record (full amount/full weeks). Over my lifetime I have over 20 years paid!

http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclai ... nce-errors

[Brigid from Ireland]

If you have a full record for 2010, then one day of work paying class A prsi in Ireland should transfer your rights to the Irish system.

A full record for 2010 means that one day of work plus a claim for unemployment benefit in 2012 will rest on the full contribution year of 2010. Nobody can say for certain, but it is likely that if you manage to get the day of work and make the claim in 2012, this will entitle you to benefit, which is not means tested and does not have a habitual residence condition. This lasts about a year, and you can claim for your wife if she is not working. She could also claim JA in her own right (in which case she would not be paid on your claim). The advantage to her claiming JA in her own right is that it makes her eligible to attend FAS training courses.

It sounds as if you might be ok for claiming in 2013 also, but 2012 seems like it is definitely ok.

The day of work in Ireland is critical, as this removes doubt as to your rights in Ireland.

If you cannot get one day of work in Ireland, you should investigate whether or not it might be better to claim in Britain first, and then transfer your claim to Ireland. I'm not sure which is best, so I am just mentioning the possibility.

As you have worked in Ireland in the past, you should explain that you have worked abroad in the UK/Asia and are now coming home to Ireland. This is critical because you will face HRC test at some stage,and you need to get the paperwork right from the first claim. The correct approach is that you are coming home to Ireland, having worked abroad for some years.

Get the British statement, or you will be waiting 6 months for your benefit. The waiting time with the British statement is probably 12 weeks.

[Latintraveller]

Thanks for replying again and for your invaluable help Bridget!

Unfortunately I will not be in a position to work in 2012 as I am returning in March 2013.

Regarding the Irish system; I understand that I will have needed to have worked for 39 weeks in 2011 or 26 weeks in both 2010 and 2011 for Contribution based benefits. Since I let my job in September 2011 I believe I qualify under the latter (i.e. 26 weeks in both 2010 and 2011).

If alternatively Ireland asks the UK if I have qualifying years then I should also pass the test as this will be based on the years April 2010 to March 2011 and April 2011 to March 2012. Unlike the Irish system for the UK system I will have had to had paid £5100 (50 times the Lower Earnings Limit of £102 per week) for each of those years.

If though Ireland asks for a hybrid of the two i.e. 26 weeks for both the UK financial years (April to March) then I am in trouble, but I guess that is unlikely.

Regarding having a day of work in Ireland am I right in guessing that excludes Self Employed work and can only take place through the PAYE system?

Maybe I could delay my move to Ireland and stay in the UK for four weeks or so and make a UK claim as you suggest. The only thing of concern is that the benefit will be paid at the UK rate (£71 per week) according to this link http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/wo ... dex_en.htm

Thanks for the information about the Habitual Residency Test. I understand that under the Common Travel Area rules residency in the UK is viewed the same as residency in Ireland at least on paper. I guess though they would favour residency in Ireland though. I have £30,000* to buy a cheap flat or house for my family I guess that buying a house will show that I am serious about living in Ireland.

How essential is the British statement? It may be difficult for me to order one from here as I have most of may old pay slips etc. packed away in the UK. I remember claiming the dole for about 10 weeks when I first moved to Ireland in 1998 (by the way I paid PRSI between 1998 and 2003 and still have the number somewhere) and was not asked for a statement. I believe they called the British Social Security Office then. I guess though the rules may have changed. Is the statement only necessary for contribution based claims or will it be needed for means-tested claims?

* Please dont think that I am rich and may possibly not need government help until I get my business off the ground as once I buy the property I will have very little money left.

[Brigid from Ireland]

One day of class A work as an employee transfers your rights. It has the added advantage of being easy to proove. It has the added advantage of not being counted against you as means, as it is easy to proove that you have stopped work.

Self employment might also work - I am not sure, so if you can't get the day of paid employment you might consider it. You need to fill out a form to register with revenue (it's free) and then you are self employed. As a self employed person, you can apply for jobseekers if the self employment is not profitable enough to live on. It will be considerably more difficult to get money from SW if you are registered as self employed, so I am not sure this is a good route, unless you think you can make a living at it.

The British statement is only necessary for benefit claims. The Irish will contact Britian in writing, but this could take months, so it causes delay on getting money. All you need to get the statement is your National Insurance number, and write to the relevant dept in Britain.

The UK was viewed as being the same as Ireland, this has changed, or perhaps more to the point, Irish people who have been abroad for a period of time are now being told they are not HRC compliant. There have been some high profile cases, one involving a destitute Irish woman who returned with two kids and was left in homeless accommodation with no money. She went to court to get money.

Buying property should be of great assistance with HRC. I would recommend that you avoid apartments, some are fire hazards, very poorly built, one had to be evacuated (Priory Hall) as it was so bad. The management fee is also a problem.

You can get a cheap house with the money you have in a town like Longford (good train access to Dublin). There was a tax incentive scheme in some areas that led to a lot of houses being built - there is no demand for them, so they are selling very cheap at present.

Claiming in Britian first may cause problems with HRC, so again it is a question of trying to figure out what is best. I would be more inclined to come straight to Ireland, and go to every employment agency to try to get some work, anywhere in Ireland.

[Latintraveller]

Thanks for your help again. Indeed; I have been looking at Longford. I have friends there and know it is a nice town. I also noticed that house prices are very reasonable in the town.

[Brigid from Ireland]

In Longford, avoid the Gleann Riada housing estate. The houses there need 50k of work to make them safe, there have been some major problems with them.

[Latintraveller]

I have been in Ireland since the middle of February and my wife and son since the middle of March. My business has been live now for six weeks.
The government is giving a reduced amount of JSA to live on (they said I can have it until the end of the year). Since I want to send off for my wife's stamp 4 shortly should I sign off JSA now? Could it prejudice her application?

btw I didnt buy a property and the money was returned to my Mother (it was a gift specifically for that purpose). I told Social Welfare as it showed up on the bank statement and they are happy with that. Therefore we are renting and under a fair bit of financial pressure.
Thanks!

[Latintraveller]

Hi again Brigid,

The current situation is that I am doing self-employed work and my wife is doing seasonal work (that will probably finish around November). With the loss of my wife's income I will probably sign-on around November which I hope will make my wife eligible for a FAS course (she had been learning beauty and hairdressing for about 8 months in Peru and she is eager to finish).

I notice that to study beauty one needs a Leaving Certificate in a Science subject and for hairdressing one needs a Junior Cert. Due to poverty my wife left school without qualifications. I enquired with the local college to see if they offered the desired course as an evening class, but that is not available. Apparently Junior Cert courses are even harder to find.

Do you know how strictly the requirement is to have these qualifications for mature students? I enquired with FAS but they couldnt shed any light on this. I had the same problem when I enrolled at university myself some years ago as I had few qualifications and I went on to get a First class degree. I have every confidence in my wife's potential, but as always it is a case of ticking boxes.

My wife could go for an online course, but if for some reason FAS were to still refuse her it would be money wasted.

Thanks for your continued help.

[Brigid from Ireland]

Hello Latintraveller,
Delighted to hear from you. There are some points you may want to consider.
You say your wife is doing seasonal work - I take it this means she is an employee paying class A prsi and getting a payslip? If this is the case she may want to consider signing on for Jobseekers Allowance or Benefit in her own right. If you have drawn JA she will pass the HRC as her habitual residence is deemed to be that of her husband. That just leaves the means test. She can even claim for you as an adult dependent, obviously the amount she would get is dependent on your income and hers. The advantage is that she must claim in her own right to be eligible for many schemes. This does not stop you claiming also - if family income is low both spouses should claim, if circumstances permit, as this is the best option to ensure access to education/training/supported employment/ future welfare benefits.
Some individuals may have a slight tendency to discriminate against married women and/or immigrants in terms of access to things like further education, so her chances of passing an interview for a place on a particular course may be impacted by this. It tends to apply to certain locations, so it is staff dependent rather than a formal policy on the part of the organisation. Reality is that there is high demand for these courses, so getting a place will be difficult anyway, but if she picked a course where there were vacant places she would get in without the Leaving Cert. The problem is that I don't know of any courses with vacant places.

My partner taught leaving cert evening classes - they never got enough students for any science subject except chemistry. I am told that private grinds are best for your wife if she wants to study Leaving or Jr Cert this year, cos evening classes are designed for people who have gone through the course as secondary school students and did not get the required grade, so evening classes are essentially revision courses, and your wife is starting from nil knowledge.

Your wife may want to do a VTOS taster course this year, and full VTOS next year if she meets the conditions. That covers the whole leaving cert over two years, with social welfare paid for the whole time. Great option. This is the course she is most likely to get, and it is a pre-cursor to university.

I would recommend that your wife start to build educational qualifications by doing the Jr cert this year. She should do English and Maths at foundation level, and anything else that interests her and is available or is needed. That starts the paperwork educational qualification trail for her. Also good as it means she will be better able to help her son with homework. You can be her tutor, as the work is easy.

Did you get FIS? If yes you will get the Back to School money for the child. FIs will stop when your wife leaves employment. Did you get the medical card? If yes I think there is no fee for sitting the Jr cert.

[Latintraveller]

Thanks so much for your help. You are a great source of information.

My wife's employer pays her PRSI (she usually only earns around €200 per week). The problem is that she has only been employed since the middle of March and it is unlikely that she will reach the required 39 weeks this year (and I believe that she is not eligible to pay additional contributions and cannot pay the €500 a year as a self-employed person from her €25 a week cleaning job).

Regarding FAS. Do interviews regard it positively if a customer has done a course themselves (for instance my wife did a course in Peru)? I think she is more suited for practical work (and hence practical courses rather than Uni). Saying that though your idea about the VTOS courses seem good and I will examine its feasibility in greater detail.

We applied for FIS last week so we are still waiting (early days!) and regarding the medical card I mention it here - http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=134671

Regards

[Brigid from Ireland]

Regarding Jobseekers Benefit, your wife would need to have 104 Paid class A cons to qualify (other conditions also). So she needs 104 weeks of class a work before she can get most benefits.

If she earns 38 euro or more per week she gets a class A stamp, so long as the work is as an employee. So there are huge advantages to even one day of work.

But I was suggesting she apply for jobseekers allowance. She does not need cons for that - just a means test based on the income of both spouses and HRC. If you got JA she passes the HRC automatically. Nice!!

If she decides not to apply for JA she can apply for JB credits only. If she gets more than 26 weeks work (26 A cons paid) these credits are available to her free of charge and help toward her old age pension and future unemployment or illness payments. She gets credits automatically if she has 26 recent A cons and is on JA. They are like the voluntary cons you can pay in England, but are free so long as you sign for them.

A lot of things in Ireland are allocated on the basis of 'pull'. So the person from a large local family must be facilitated first, and others will get a place if any are left. One problem is that I think she must be claiming money from social welfare in her own right (not as your dependent) to meet the first condition for getting most courses.

Some of my pals complain that everyone was interviewed for a course, and the places were allocated on the basis of where you were on the waiting list (ie when you applied) no matter how suitable you were for the course. Others - poor - complain that they were offered a short and useless course on CV prep (10/12 weeks) and people with 'pull' were offered long and useful courses - like gardening or hairdressing or beauty or office skills. Once they did a course they were taken off the waiting list for all courses, so they felt it unfair that they were offered something pointless.

[Latintraveller]

Wow!

These possibilities seem like a dream come true. It will mean that my wife will have the opportunity of having the education she missed and training to have a career. In time she will be giving something back to Ireland through paying tax so it is clearly a win-win situation.

All seems very strange that my wife can claim dole whereas if I claimed dole it would be open to scrutiny by immigration. It is taking a while to get my head around the logic.

The only problem is can see is that VTOS courses in Waterford seem to be limited to 4 courses of very little relevance to what my wife would like to study. Hopefully that will change in the new academic year or maybe she could get on an internship.

Thanks

[Brigid from Ireland]

The problem with both of those options is that she probably needs to draw social welfare in her own right for a set number of days or weeks before she is eligible for VTOS or an internship.

Same with the new scheme where the employer gets 10K to take on new staff - the staff must be on the JA for I think a year first - so in practice these schemes make it difficult for people not on the live register to get jobs, as there is a 10K incentive to hire the unemployed.

[Latintraveller]

If the criteria for joining a FAS course is strict I guess the best bet is to do an online cert course like below for 400 euro and then do the FAS course.

Thanks for your help.

http://www.kilroyscollege.ie/course.php?courseid=53