Returning to the UK

[andyjohnst]

Hi everyone.

I am a UK national. I was living in Ireland from Dec 11 to end of September 12 with my non-eu wife. We arrived together and we left together. At the start of September 12 we had our first child together.

While in Ireland my wife applied for her Residence Card and it was granted in July 12. She currently has this and it does not expire until 2017. During our stay in Ireland my wife applied for a visit for for the UK, which was also granted. We went to visit for a weekend and went back to Ireland

Reason we went to Ireland was to exercise EU Treaty rights as UKBA refused a visit visa for my wife (who was under 21 at the time) so we couldn't apply for a spouse visa so we went to Ireland together. Stayed 9 months.

On the 29 September 2012, we left Ireland to go to her home country to let her family see the baby etc etc. To make it easier at the time, and we had to go sooner rather than later to her home country, we put the baby into her passport rather than getting her own. So our daughter is currently in my wife's passport only. When we go to the UK I will apply for hers own passport then. We have registered the birth in Ireland. We are planning to stay here until around 27 December 2012,which will mean I have been outside of the EEA for 3 months.

I do not want to go back to Ireland and wish to return to the UK. Although she has the 5 year residence card and can technically travel to the UK with me with this, it may be difficult getting on the plane etc, I have decided to apply for a entry visa for my non-eu spouse and our daughter (2 seperate applications).

So, I have just completed the online visa application for my wife and my daughter to accompany me on my return to the UK. We completed the "Family member of an EEA National" Like I mentioned previously, my wife was issued with one of these in July 12.

I have a few questions. Is this just a mere formality and will they issue her with the entry visa.

Is there a time limit on when we should return? If we were to stay out say 6 months of a 12 month period would it invalidate my wife's EU family permit card and I could not be classed as a returner?

Should I mention I am returning to the UK and will look for a job when I return? Should I mention anything about looking for a job upon my return? Is there anything I should mention in the letter etc? Do I have to start applying for job before I return? Is there anything I must show them?

Documents I was going to supply:
Payslips from Ireland job
Marriage certificate
Birth certificate for newborn
Utility bills in both our names
PPS Numbers (equivalent of NI number in Ireland)
Rental property contract
Tax credits certificate
P45
Work contract
Confirmation of my resignation from work
Wife's EU Family permit card issued by the GNIB in Ireland (does it have to be the original or can I send a copy?)
Copy of my pasport

Is there anything I missed?

It would be great if anyone can share any information with me or give me any general advice.

I think I have done everything right but any pointers and stuff would be a great help.

Thanks and look forward to hearing from you

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

You are British and have been working in Ireland with your wife. That means your wife (and any other family members) can enter the UK on the basis of EU law.

Is your child not also British? If you were born in the UK naturalized there, then the child is also British.

Your wife's Irish Residence Card is not particularly important with respect to the UK, other than it proves she is a family member who was with you in Ireland.

When you return to the UK, from an immigration perspective there is no need for you to work or to even be looking for work.

I would suggest you answer only a few questions on the EEA Family Permit application form.

Do not put any information about your or your wife's employment (present or future) or assets. You need to provide them with a pay slip or copy of your contract in Ireland to prove you have been working. Nothing more. They do NOT need to know how much you earned.

Should I mention I am returning to the UK and will look for a job when I return? Should I mention anything about looking for a job upon my return? Is there anything I should mention in the letter etc? Do I have to start applying for job before I return? Is there anything I must show them?

Documents I was going to supply:
Payslips from Ireland job
Marriage certificate
Birth certificate for newborn
Utility bills in both our names
PPS Numbers (equivalent of NI number in Ireland)
Rental property contract
Tax credits certificate
P45
Work contract
Confirmation of my resignation from work
Wife's EU Family permit card issued by the GNIB in Ireland (does it have to be the original or can I send a copy?)
Copy of my pasport

This is way too much information. You need to provide them only the information at http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2007/04 ... u-citizen/ plus you need to provide some sort of evidence that you have been working in Ireland, such as a pay slip.

Where are you applying?

[Jambo]

When you wife applied for a visit visa from Ireland did she apply for EEA Family Permit as a EEA national family member? Then the same evidence your wife provided in order to get the visa from Ireland should be enough from her home country as well.

BTW - I believe your child is also Irish citizen.

[andyjohnst]

Hi Directive, thanks for the reply.

Yes - Our child is British. But the fact she does not have a UK passport and an Irish birth cert, at the moment, she is only in my wife's passport (Azerbaijani) So thechnically, does that not mean at this moment in time she is Azerbaijani? I was born and bread in Manchester, UK. I only left the UK in December 2012 to pursue EU Treaty rights to bring my wife back with me in the future for the obvious reasons.


With regards to the documents, is it not better to air on the side of caution? Like proving, with bills in our names we were living there? I do have several months pay slips, my P45 and Tax credits Certificate. Work contract etc. Or would providing too much do damage? I mean I have it all accessable and it is not a trouble to get it together.

Reason why I was thinking of supplying so much is the fact that this embassy have refused my wife 2 previous times for UK Visit visa. I know each application is judged in it's own merit but I can't shake the idea they may have a Bee in their bonnet about going down a different route which they have to give? I have heard that people can be jealous of people leaving the country here in Azerbaijan and refuse for that reason.

I am in Azerbaijan at the moment in time. Applications have been completed for both my wife and daughter and submitted. Appointment is set for both on November 7th @ 1100 in Baku Azerbaijan.

[andyjohnst]

Application submitted on 7 November 2012

Got an email to collect documents today. When to collect and they have refused the entry visa! They have also placed a black stamp in the back of my wife's passport noting the refusal.

Saying with did not provide suitable evidence.They also said that I cannot benefit from the EU free movement as I am not exercising EU treaty rights.

I put a letter in stating we are in Azerbaijan on a holiday and I will be returning to the UK in December. What is going on?

I told you. These guys do not know what they are doing!!!! They are a pain in the arse!!!

We don't even need this visa but getting on the plan to UK without it will be near impossible from Azerbaijan, they would not understand the Directive.

I do not have to refusal letter to hand at the moment but will post it as soon as my wife gets back with it. They mentioned we are travelling with 2 children when we are not. Only our 1 child.

Really annoyed and not sure what to do!

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

What evidence did you submit with the application that you were working in Ireland?

[andyjohnst]

Signed Conract
Pay slips
P45
Tax credit certificate

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Signed Conract
Pay slips
P45
Tax credit certificate

They have P45 in Ireland?

[andyjohnst]

Yes - when you finish employment you get a P45.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

I would call the embassy to discuss. You have clearly provided evidence that you have been exercising your treaty rights and that has been overlooked. They need to correct the error. Ask for an ECM to review the refusal on an urgent basis, or you will complain to the European Commission.

I would love to see the refusal letter!

[andyjohnst]

I will post it as soon as I get a clear view of it. It is so stupid! I quoted the directive on letters and emails to them and even provided snap shots of their own documentation guidelines which are posted on their website!

Are applications assessed by locals or diplomats in an embassy abroad?

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

I will post it as soon as I get a clear view of it. It is so stupid! I quoted the directive on letters and emails to them and even provided snap shots of their own documentation guidelines which are posted on their website!

Are applications assessed by locals or diplomats in an embassy abroad?

Very good question. In theory all applications are assessed by an "ECO". They may be locally hired or from the UK. They will be focussed on processing of visas and not diplomats in a more general sense.

[andyjohnst]

Just had a call from the embassy.

I told my wife to kick off at the embassy, which she did. They had to call the police to remove her. I then phoned the embassy, visa section was closed. can only call between 1000 and 1100. I explained a situation but my call credit ran out as he was talking.

Anyway, this English woman, Lizzie Wyschna just called me saying they got it wrong. They said I should return with the passport and they will put the visa in her passport either tomorrow or Friday at the latest.

She was nice. She said the visa officer had the impression that I was returning to the UK from Azerbaijan and that I should still be resident in Ireland and come back immediately to the UK from there. I said we are on holiday after the birth of our child and come so our family can meet her.

She understood and reversed the refusal

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

She said the visa officer had the impression that I was returning to the UK from Azerbaijan and that I should still be resident in Ireland and come back immediately to the UK from there.

Please explain a little more clearly. I am not sure I understand.

[andyjohnst]

Sorry. The person who called me went on to state that: In order to qualify for the EEA family permit, I, the EEA citizen, should still be resident in the member state and returning immediately to the UK.

She said that she got the impression the the ECO thought we moved to Azerbaijan to live and then will go back to the UK.

I said no, we are on a holiday and will return to the UK. We came to show her family the baby before our return. I said that the directive does not stipulate that we needed to return directly from the member state nor does it give a time limit on when you should return.

I am surprised I got a call to be honest. Very surprised.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

The person who called me went on to state that: In order to qualify for the EEA family permit, I, the EEA citizen, should still be resident in the member state and returning immediately to the UK.

UKBA's guidelines do not say this. Nor does any case law that I am aware of.

[andyjohnst]

Yeah that is exactly what I said to her.

We got the end result anyway. Just had to make people listen and teach them.

I enjoyed venting a bit of anger in here haha

[andyjohnst]

Here is what the refusal says:

You are an Azerbaijani national who lives in Azerbaijan with your husband and two children and are seeking to accompany your British spouse to the UK. Your husband holds no other nationality. In view of your failure to provide satisfactory evidence, I am not satisfied that you are a family member of an EEA national in accordance with Regulation 7 of the Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006. Whilst I am aware that you have previously been issued an EEA Family Permit this was in March 2012 when your husband was exercising his treaty rights in the Republic of Ireland and you were living together in a family unit there. As such you could, at that time, benefit for legislation enshrined in the Surinder Singh judgement. As you are no longer both living and working in an EEA member state you are unable to benefit from this legislation.

I therefore refuse your EEA Family Permit because I am not satisfied that you meet all of the requirements of Regulation 12 of the immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006.

Several errors in this statement:

1) We only have 1 child
2) Your husband hold no other nationality. How is this relevant to anything?
3) Failure to provide evidence she is a family member? We provided original, certified marriage certificate. We are married in the UK in 2011
4) Issued the RC in Ireland in March??? No, we got this issued in July 2012
5) I did not finish exercising EU treaty rights in March, I only finished working on 28 September 2012. We have only been on holiday for 1 and a half months so are still classed as resident there.
6) They obviously don't know the Surinder Singh case or they would know our case is probably a near copy!

Absolute idiots. I am not in Baku at the min and I would love to go to the embassy to speak with the ECO to address these points...

[andyjohnst]

Hi everyone.

So now we have my wife's entry visa issued for the UK. It's the standard 6 months validity one.

Couple of questions if you don't mind.

We will be returning the the UK under Surinder Singh. I was exercising treaty right as a worker from December 11 to Sept 12. We then had a holiday in my wife's home country (Azerbaijan) from 29 Sep 12 until 3 Jan 13. Reason for the extended holiday was due to the birth of our child on 5 September 12.

When is the best time to apply for my wife's Residence Card for the UK?
Should she fill in the EEA2 form?
What supporting documents should be supplied with the application?
Do we have to answer all the questions on the application?

Any tips or Advice would be appreciated.

[Obie]

Interesting. How did you finally convince them to issue the visa (EEA family Permit)?

I believe you can apply for residence card at at anytime after your arrival. No need to be exercising treaty right before doing so. All the evidence to confirm you were living in a memberstate as a worker, and that you were resident wih your wife is all you need to provide for the EEA 2 application.

[andyjohnst]

I sent a few emails with detailed information letting them know I had done my homework. I phoned the embassy but didn't manage to speak to the visa section and my wife also kicked up a bit of a fuss. About 2 hours after my wife collecting her refusal letter, her kicking off and my phone call I got I call from an ECO (a different one to whom completed her application and issued the refusal).

I reiterated we are on holiday atm and technically still resident in Ireland. I advised we came here after the birth of our child to show friends and family over here and then we return to the UK. This ECO agreed that it was justifiable for us to have a 3/4 month holiday and then return. I did point out the there is no imposed time scale on the return. Anyway, I didn't argue much with her as she seemed like she wanted to resolve their mistake as fast as she could.

She asked me to tell my wife to bring her passport the next morning and she would issue the visa which she did and was collected the following day.

On the EEA2 application, do I have to complete section 6? This is asking for employment information, I assume for the UK? Or do I have to input information on my employment when in Ireland in this section?

[Jambo]

Check the EEA2 form. It has a specific section for Surinder Singh application (section 5). It doesn't matter what you do in the UK. You will need to prove (again) your employment (in section 6) and residence in Ireland. After 5 years, you will need to prove it again for the PR Confirmation.

You can apply whenever you wish ( as it is not dependant on your activities in the UK).

[andyjohnst]

Yeah I was just going through the form. At the end of Section 5 - Surinder Singh Cases it then says:

If your UK national family member exercised treaty rights as a worker, please go to section 6.

Section 6 relates to employment and the opening statement says:

You must complete this section if you are applying as the family member of an EEA national who is a
paid worker. If you are supporting them through working you must refer to section .
If your EEA national family member has already acquired permanent residence, please provide either
their document certifying permanent residence (if they have one) or evidence of how they acquired permanent residence, for example evidence of exercising Treaty rights for a continuous period of 5 years
prior to the date at which they acquired permanent residence.

I would assume this section is not applicable under Surinder Singh cases but I just don't know why they link you to this after completing the section relating to Singh???

[Jambo]

You need to fill both sections. Ignore the opening statement of section 6. It was there before. The Surinder section is a new addition to the form so they didn't update the statement. Basically section 5 is Surinder specific questions (where, when) and section 6 is about employment (name of employer, length of employment etc).

[andyjohnst]

This section seems to relate to working in the UK though. It also asks for an employers declaration in the form of a signature and possible company stamp.

I have to get this completed by my former employer?