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10 years with visas, but possible gap in 'treaty rights'?

Use this section for any queries concerning the EU Settlement Scheme, for applicants holding pre-settled and settled status.

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phillydee
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10 years with visas, but possible gap in 'treaty rights'?

Post by phillydee » Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:31 pm

My last visa was as as a family member (husband) of an EEA national who was exercising treaty rights. In June that visa expired, and as my wife and I are separated I applied for discretionary leave to remain, for which I am still awaiting the outcome. The divorce decree absolute went through early August.

So my question is: I have completed 10 years here, but after the birth of my daughter my wife stopped working (and not studying or looking for work etc). So I'm told she is no longer exercising her treaty rights. My visa here was as a family member of an EEA national EXERCISING TREATY RIGHTS. Someone suggested that during this period when she wasn't working etc, she wasn't exercising treaty rights and so I wasn't on a valid visa. Which means my 10 years wasn't continuous after all.

Can anyone confirm or discount this possibility for me?

Obie
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Post by Obie » Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:34 pm

When did you get married to your wife?

Are you in contact with her?

How old is your child?

Was he or she in school when your wife was working?

Are you in contact with them?

Whoever adviced you too apply for DLR, seem to have led you in the wrong direction.
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

phillydee
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Post by phillydee » Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:16 pm

Hi,
Thanks for getting in touch so quickly. In answer to your questions:

We married on July 2007.

Yes we are in contact. Very strained but getting better.

Our daughter is 5, but her status is uncertain. Born here, has only lived here. Not British, not definitely German (her mum is German). Holds an Australian passport (We went to Ause when she was 10 months, was easier to get her a passport than a visa. Visa was tricky as she had no passport...).

My wife stopped working some months before the birth. So no my girl was not in school when she was working.

I have fought hard to get my girl for one night a fortnight and 2 hours after school each Weds. And I see my ex at the door for 'hand-overs'. So yes we are in contact if not good terms.

I am starting to suspect you are right about being led down the wrong path (I have just found out my 'solicitor' is not registered). Which is why I'm making enquiries elsewhere including here. She is pushing me down the Europe route, and it seems to me to be much more complicated (as my daughter's status is unclear) and probably not necessary. For example I have been here since August 2002, but she says it doesn't make 10 years because of a gap when my wife was a stay-at-home new mum, and so not exercising treaty rights. Does this mean I was illegal during this period (she has never gone back to work or to my knowledge looked for work)? Because the guidance notes say quite clearly 10 years LEGAL residency.

Thanks,
Phillydee

Obie
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Post by Obie » Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:49 pm

Phil you seem to be in a very tricky and precarious situation.

The lawyer is right. You cannot be considered as having stayed for a lawful continuous 5 years as you cannot show that treaty right was being exercised during the existence of your marrige, which would have accrued towards the10 years period. In that regards, the solicitor is right.

What has your wife been doing since you seperated, and when the decree absolute came through.

How long had she been in the UK prior to the decree absolute been approved?

Why is your daughter not a German Citizen?

She does not need to hold a German Passport for her to be s German Citizen?.

You should have obtained a medical insurance for the family prior to the decree absolutr, and that would have placed you in a much better position than you are now.

You might have to take a bit of humble pie and ask her what she was doing prior to the decree absolute being granted.
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

EEAslough
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Post by EEAslough » Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:09 pm

Phil, Just get another lawyer and you will be alright.

phillydee
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Post by phillydee » Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:23 pm

Thanks. I'm very very confused and frustrated, but I'll try not to burden anyone with that. You have answered my question. EEAslough, I've been concerned with this lawyer for a while now, so I went to get a second opinion. The 2nd opinion made it clear to me that many of my concerns were legitimate, that my lawyer is not giving me good advice. Also that my 10 years would suffice treaty rights or no. And that made me concerned too, hence posting here. So she has also not advised me wisely. A shame as she inspired confidence otherwise. I just need someone to get it right!
Obie - since we separated my wife has been a stay at home mum. She still is. It's confusing because technically German, she came here aged 2. Doesn't speak German. I think she's managed to sign on to benefits, and not JSA. Possibly she's receiving benefits she's not technically entitled to. She's not forthcoming with information, and this could be why.

Obie
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Post by Obie » Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:56 pm

Since 2 Years, that is a long time. Do you pay child support?

Is there a court order that you should have access or joint custody, and that this access or custody should take place in the UK?

To be fair to him/her, the first lawyer seem to have given correct advice but took wrong approach.

Regarding the second, well he/she is certainly not right in law. The jury is still out on whether he may be right in approach.

Answer the question, and i will find time to give you a comprehensive answer.
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

phillydee
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Post by phillydee » Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:05 pm

Thanks again for your time!

Yes, my ex wife has spent 46 of her 48 years in the UK but is still technically German. And yes I pay child support. There is a court order saying I get my girl for 2 Saturday nights each month and Wednesdays - all day in the holidays, 1.5 hours after school in term time. No mention was made of contact abroad. So yes, it was meant that it should take place in the UK, but I don't think it specifically says that.

I believe the reason we went for discretionary leave was to give us time to find out all the details of what my ex is doing and to establish my daughter's position.

So it may be that her approach was logical, but there are other reasons for me to lose confidence in my first lawyer. I haven't gone into them because its another story. I might post details of that if it seems appropriate, I'm just trying to get clarity on this one!

Obie
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Post by Obie » Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:19 pm

Please dont mention details of a firm on the forum. I will simply delete it.

It is open to you to give details of advice given. But dont give us details that can be used to trace a firm.

Well i believe prior to her getting together with you, she would have worked in the UK for a continuous period of 5years, or being to school here. Even if she hasn't, her parents would, which means she is got a PR. We just need to prove this.

DLR is a long process, you dont need it, as i believe you have PR already. Just have to do some work to prove it, or challenge HO to prove it.

I believe your child is a British, on a balance of probabilities.
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

phillydee
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Post by phillydee » Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:27 pm

Thanks Obie,
No I wouldn't have dreamed of posting any kind of details that could trace to anyone.

Sorry, something I said before wasn't accurate - the bit about spending 46 years of her 48 years in the UK. I meant 46 years away from Germany. But she also spent 15 years in Spain. Sorry about that. When I met her she'd not been long back from Spain. That was summer 2004 I think. I believe she arrived back in the UK late 2003. I realise this is important because if she'd been working here for 5 years when our daughter was born then our daughter would be a resident (PR = permanent resident?). Our girl was born October 2007. Also my wife stopped working earlier that year. So its quite a shortfall of 5 years.

Hey I'm EXTREMELY grateful you are taking the time to hear my story and advise. I could chat all night, but I don't want to impose on you, its now after 7.30 in the evening. If you want to pick this up tomorrow I totally understand! If not, I'm right here.

Thanks,
Phil

Obie
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Post by Obie » Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:48 pm

Hi again,

Well it is strange that she has not secured British Citizenship. She spent 15 years in Spain, therefore i believe she must have spent a great deal of time in the UK. About 30 years of her life to be precise. However since she had left the UK for over 2 years and never returned, the chances are there is no PR, even if there were, it would have expired anyway, due to the length of absence.

I am not sure about the position of the DLR application, but i don't think it is the best solution. Firstly the UK takes years to deal with those application, and sometimes the refuse without a right of appeal, even though the applicant would have a strong convention rights claim, if the decision was appeal-able.

Applying under the EEA rules is more straightforward, and free, and in the event of a refusal, you have a right of appeal, and then you have the opportunity to go to court, and the chances are, your appeal will either be allowed under the EEA regulations or Article 8.

I don't think your ex leaving work to look after your child is conclusive of the matter. She might have had maternity leave, which is considered as still working, even if she didn't, there is a case pending at the C JEU, on whether or not mother who were previously employed, should lose their workers status, when they take time of to look after their child, in cases were there is no fixed contract and there was no maternity leave.

Also, i believe your daughter is German, according to the rules governing German nationality.

There are two options for you, you can either apply to retain your residence on the basis that their is a court order, and that access has to take place in the UK, and that she is in school in the UK. When decisions of this nature are made, the best interest of the child has to be the primary consideration, therefore the inability to provide evidence she was a qualified person at the time of divorce, will carry less weight than the best interest of the child.

The other option is possibly, applying for a Medical insurance for her, and with the terms of the contact order and her German citizenship, apply under the EEA regulation, as the joint primary carer of the child.
It will not be a straightforward application, but it may succeed.

That is my assessment for the time being. I might come up with more later, as i study your case further.

In the absence of documentary evidence of treaty rights covering the period you were a family member of your wife, i concur with the first solicitor that an application under the 10 years lawful residence policy is bound to fail, the guidance on this is pretty clear and straightforward.

Guidance on Long Residence Page 37
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

phillydee
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Post by phillydee » Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:14 am

Thanks, you've given me a lot to think about. I also don't know why she never took British citizenship. I think it was simply a case of she didn't really need to, and it was easy to just go on as she had been. You mentioned there is a case pending regarding whether a mother leaving work to care for her child might not after all nullify her exercising treaty rights. This would be very interesting to keep an eye on.
Yes, it appears that my daughter is German after all. It took a little while to reach that conclusion, there were some complications. Firstly she was not registered as German at birth, or in the first year. Secondly she took her mothers surname, and not mine. Under German law, a child automatically takes her father's name. They do not recognise the mothers name as a legal name. Before they will recognise her as a German citizen we have to attend the German embassy and perform a 'name clearance' for her. She can then take her mother's name, and they will have it on record who the child is and who both her parents are. Very convoluted! What's more, to perform this name clearance I must take along a load of documentation including my passport. Which is in the home office! They don't want to make this easy for me.
I'm going to take your advice and for my next step take out private medical insurance for my little girl. Regardless of whether it helps tactically, it's probably a good thing to have for her.
I'm off to sleep now. Once again, thank you so much for your considered attention!!
Phil

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