Casual workers jobseeker's allowance and Citizenship??

[Monifé]

Hi All,

Long time since I posted here, hope someone can help.

I (Irish) have recently lost my job and my husband (non-EU on stamp 4, 2 years before he can apply for citizenship) is a casual worker. He was getting 4/5 days work a week but he works in the hospitality industry and as the early months of the year are quiet, he keeps getting put on 3 days a week.

We are struggling financially now, especially with the extortionate rents in Dublin.

I am just wondering, if he was to apply for casual workers jobseeker's allowance, the one where if he works 3 days a week, he can claim social welfare benefits for the other 2 days, would that affect his citizenship prospects? He is able to apply for citizenship in 2 years time.

As we have had a tough time with the immigration authorities, we don't want to do anything that will scupper his chances at citizenship.

Many thanks in advance.

[IntegratedMigrant]

Hi All,

Long time since I posted here, hope someone can help.

I (Irish) have recently lost my job and my husband (non-EU on stamp 4, 2 years before he can apply for citizenship) is a casual worker. He was getting 4/5 days work a week but he works in the hospitality industry and as the early months of the year are quiet, he keeps getting put on 3 days a week.

We are struggling financially now, especially with the extortionate rents in Dublin.

I am just wondering, if he was to apply for casual workers jobseeker's allowance, the one where if he works 3 days a week, he can claim social welfare benefits for the other 2 days, would that affect his citizenship prospects? He is able to apply for citizenship in 2 years time.

As we have had a tough time with the immigration authorities, we don't want to do anything that will scupper his chances at citizenship.

Many thanks in advance.

Him applying for causal worker jobseeker's allowance and applying for citizenship will not impede his chances of his citizenship being approved by any reason whatsoever.

Need I remind you though that this could have a reason to deny him citizenship with the last government. But one cannot be denied citizenship because of what S/he is entitled for as it is nonsensical "Alan Shatter".

SO many unemployed people have gotten their citizenship approved recently!.
Dont worry at all about that as it will not affect your husband. Again you should know that it is in minister's absolute discretion to grant or refuse citizenship regardless the applicants status. By the way, I love when some Irish women are very concern about their husbands Irish citizenship.

Best of luck

[agniukas]

As it is at the discresion of the particular minister, noone knows who will be the minister at the time of your husband's decision for citizenship and what criteria and views on social welfare he/she will have at the time.

[Brigid from Ireland]

Are you available for work? If so, you could apply for jobseekers benefit yourself. This is the route least likely to affect any application for citizenship on the part of your husband.

[Malika]

As it is at the discresion of the particular minister, noone knows who will be the minister at the time of your husband's decision for citizenship and what criteria and views on social welfare he/she will have at the time.

This is very true........... why don't you apply for Jobseeker's benefit yourself which is what you had contributed to the system whilst working.

[Monifé]

Sorry only saw these replies now.

I am currently drawing jobseeker's benefit, which is 188euro a week. Our rent is 900 a month and we have UPC, Gas and Electricity bills on top of that. Not to mention groceries and other miscellaneous expenses.

For the last month, he has been on a 3 day week. This week and next, he is only getting 2 days. We have a very small amount of savings which will carry us til the end of February. After that, we will not be able to survive financially.

Hence why I asked, if he claimed casual jobseeker's benefit/allowance (he's only been working since July 2012) for the days he's not working, would it affect a future citizenship application?

We have had such a rocky road with immigration issues, I don't want us to do anything to make it even harder for ourselves.

[Brigid from Ireland]

You can apply to have him added to your jobseeker's benefit claim as an adult dependent. This can be backdated to when his work hours were reduced.

When your jobseekers benefit finishes, you will have to apply for jobseekers allowance - this is means tested against his income, so he will be on that claim as an adult dependent.

Once you are on Jobseekers allowance, you might as well apply for help with the rent - all of these are means tested, so if you get one you might as well get all.

You could also apply for a medical card,but this is only worthwhile if you have medical expenses.

Do you have children together - if he is the father of an Irish citizen child citizenship is easier to get.

[Monifé]

You can apply to have him added to your jobseeker's benefit claim as an adult dependent. This can be backdated to when his work hours were reduced.

When your jobseekers benefit finishes, you will have to apply for jobseekers allowance - this is means tested against his income, so he will be on that claim as an adult dependent.

Once you are on Jobseekers allowance, you might as well apply for help with the rent - all of these are means tested, so if you get one you might as well get all.

You could also apply for a medical card,but this is only worthwhile if you have medical expenses.

Do you have children together - if he is the father of an Irish citizen child citizenship is easier to get.

Thanks for your reply.

No, we have no children yet and won't even try until we are in a better financial situation. We're together 5 years but he only got his stamp 4 last June so our lives were somewhat on hold until then and we were only trying to get on track with our future and then I lost my job.

Would it be more beneficial for me to apply to have him as an adult dependent or for him to claim casual jobseeker's? I thought you could only claim for dependents if they too were not working, I don't know, excuse my ignorance. This is my first time on social welfare and I have no idea how the system works.

Can we apply for rent assistance while his hours are reduced? He works in the hotel industry and I can imagine it will be like this for February and possible 3/4 if not all of March. After that, we hope for him to be on at least 4 day a week.

Thanks again.

[Brigid from Ireland]

From the point of view of citizenship, it is better if you claim for him as a dependent.

Financially, it depends on how much he earns and how many days he works.

The payment for an adult dependent is means tested on his income -so if he earned 100/week you would probably get the full amount, if he earned 400/week you would probably get nothing. If he earns in between you get paid on a sliding scale.

If he claims himself it depends on both his earnings and the number of days worked, so it is more complicated.

If he now works less than 30 hours/week you can claim help with rent. Go to the CWO for this.

A child improves your financial situation - if you have a child and either parent works 20 hours per week, you can claim family income supplement. This is one of the best payments to be on, if you are trying to get citizenship, as it is a family benefit, not an assistance payment.

[ImmigrationLawyer]

Bredidfromireland, can I just ask where you are getting this information from, eg that a person receiving a Qualified Adult payment is viewed more favourably by the Dept for naturalisation than if he was drawing JSA and claiming a QA for his partner? This doesn't seem to make any sense to me.

[Brigid from Ireland]

Jobseekers Benefit is viewed more favourable than Jobseekers Allowance. That is why I was suggesting she put him as a dependent spouse on her benefit claim.

The logic is that benefit is an insurance scheme into which you have paid (prsi stands for pay related social insurance) to insure yourself against short term unemployment/illness.

In all circumstances, if an immigrant who wants citizenship has the option of benefit or assistance, benefit is a better choice, because you have paid into this.

[ImmigrationLawyer]

Do you mind if I ask how do you know the policy of the Department in these respects? Do you have inside knowledge !?

[Brigid from Ireland]

I do a lot of voluntary work with immigrants.

Questions about welfare and citizenship are common.

The answer is as follows:

Child benefit and maternity benefit = no risk (If you leave the EU (eg to have the baby in India), you must notify welfare in writing and stop claiming these, otherwise you will be found out at the airport when you return and then you have a problem).

Illness benefit and jobseekers benefit = low risk, as you have paid into these schemes and are less likely to be penalised for claiming these. (One word though - if you have a serious, degenerative condition, do not list this on the illness benefit claim, choose 'sore ankle' rather than 'post polio syndrome', as both are accurate, but the minor condition is a better choice.)

Jobseekers Assistance/Rent supplement = the Irish parliament has the power to introduce any law in relation to citizenship, with no advance warning. Therefore these payments are higher risk. These are the ones you are asked about when you apply for citizenship. These are viewed negatively, if you receive for a long period of time.

If you have an Irish citizen child all social welfare payments are fine - the citizen child protects you anyway, so citizenship is not a big issue for you once you have the citizen child.

[IntegratedMigrant]

Jobseekers Benefit is viewed more favourable than Jobseekers Allowance. That is why I was suggesting she put him as a dependent spouse on her benefit claim.

The logic is that benefit is an insurance scheme into which you have paid (prsi stands for pay related social insurance) to insure yourself against short term unemployment/illness.

In all circumstances, if an immigrant who wants citizenship has the option of benefit or assistance, benefit is a better choice, because you have paid into this.

I understand where you' re coming from BRIGID but that may have been used by the previous government to access applicants financially.

This is not the case now!. People are entitled to JSA and shouldn't be denied citizenship because of what they' re entitled to as it is nonsensical. "Alan Shatter".

JSA is never a crime to claim or have any bad record in ones financial records or backgrounds and therefore extremely nonsensical to be used as a reason to deny someone citizenship!

[Brigid from Ireland]

No inside knowledge.

I just have an interest in this area - my partner is an immigrant and a lot of his family want citizenship. I read the relevant documents/legal cases in both Ireland and similar countries such as the UK, Canada, Australia.

Some countries don't want immigrants who have a disability (there was a case of a family with a Downs Syndrome child being told they could not immigrate to a particular country). That may become an issue in Ireland soon, so serious disability is best not mentioned until after you have citizenship.

Most countries don't want immigrants who become dependent on social welfare. Laws in respect of this may be introduced in Ireland - I don't want any of my pals to get caught out if such laws are introduced, so I looked to see which forms of social welfare are 'safer'. Benefit is safer than assistance.

[IntegratedMigrant]

I suppose Alan Shatter put so many things into account and I view his as a man of common sense just like me

Reasons

1.There is recession in Ireland
2. Unemployed is at all time high
3. 3 out of 5 immigrants are unemployed!
4. Immigrants cannot leave the country like other Irish to seek for work as they dont have full rights in other EU states.
5. They cannot find work here to because there is no work!

Believe me if this JSA citizenship application access strict is still in place, so many immigrants would have had there citizenship refused. And I mean so many! Thousands!

[ImmigrationLawyer]

I have to say your experiences don't accord with my own experiences of Dept Justice Policy - particularly in respect of the type of injury/ disability, this doesn't make sense to me. Having an Irish child has not seemed to protect applicants previously refused on character or other grounds (and nor has being a refugee, in respect of minor criminal offences particularly).
I suppose all that is certain is that Dept Justice policy, over the last 10 years, has not been consistent, and certainly has not been transparent! The present Minister does seem to have relaxed the policy regarding very minor criminal convictions or social welfare payments, ie receipt of social welfare has not been used an a reason for refusal recently.

[Brigid from Ireland]

I would agree that JSA is not a crime to claim.

If you look you will see that I suggested the original poster put her spouse on her benefit claim, and then keep him there when the benefit runs out and she transfers to allowance. I also suggested she claim help with the rent, if her spouse works less than 30 hours per week. So I am in favour of claiming any entitlement, including means tested ones.

But

the other point is still accurate. Benefit is safer than assistance, if you want citizenship.

I am expecting Ireland to introduce changes in this area at some stage. I think that visas may be changed to prohibit access to public assistance schemes. I could be wrong on this, but the recession is very severe, and public servants are trying hard to cut in areas that will not hurt their own families. This is one such area.

[Brigid from Ireland]

There is a definite lack of consistency and transparency.

People should look for their full file under FOI and Data Protection laws if refused anything (health care, education, social welfare, citizenship...). They should also look for internal staff e-mails/memos which contain their name/pps - these are often not on the file but are a goldmine of useful information.

Look under both laws, because items releasable under one law do not necessarily get released under the other.

I have done this for people, and had great success as a result. The things I have found in such files continue to surprise me.

[ImmigrationLawyer]

Hmmm I am still sceptical as to this, unless you can point to some evidence of the Dept's policy regarding these payments. I don't see how a means testes QA payment attached to a JS Benefit payment is any different to a JSA payment... Anyway it seems that since Shatter, no one is refused on grounds of social welfare.
Regarding precluding non_Irish nationals from receiving benefits, I don't see IReland going down this route. Maybe I'm too optimistic but Ireland does see itself as a humanitarian country. I don't think they want to be like other EU countries with large numbers of people from immigrant communities destitute on the streets.

[IntegratedMigrant]

Brigid from Ireland, No one recently has been refused citizenship because S/he was on JSA, get it?

I know lots of people that are on JSA and have never worked for more than 3 years but still received their citizenship!

In the past yes, if you have claimed JSA that will be a reason for the refusal of your citizenship application, but this is not the case now ok?

I repeat, Brigid from Ireland, No one recently has been refused citizenship because S/he was on JSA.

[IntegratedMigrant]

Not only that, people in the past have been refused citizenship because of minor offenses and road traffic offenses. From Alan Shatter I understood that his predecessor does not investigate into these offenses to determine the nature of them. They simply exaggerate the offense and label you as "Not of good Character" which will lead to the refusal of citizenship.

That is one of the reasons 950euro was later introduced to help investigate in offenses and not just over-exaggerate them.

Alan Shatter said himself that whilst he was investigating, that he noticed that some applicants where refused citizenship when they shouldn't!. That's how heartless the previous ministers was!. They cared very less about immigrants

[IntegratedMigrant]

I think that visas may be changed to prohibit access to public assistance schemes.

Ofcourse that are so many types of visas that restrict people from seeking public funds. Of all visas, I think only one type of visa which is a work permit visa is the type of visa where people could seek public funds.

But there is a catch, you must produce an employment contract before you're issued that type of visa, and at the time of renewal and you re seeking public fund, you' re more than likely to loose that visa!.

Other visas like Family Reunification, Join Spouse etc does not give you access to public funds, but when you obtain a GNIB stamp 4 you are then eligible.

[Monifé]

Thanks everyone for your replies.

I looked into both options. Adding him as a qualified adult on my claim would not work for us because it takes his previous 6 weeks wages and takes the average and it either wouldn't be much or anything at all. We are not going to apply for rent supplement because his hours are all over the place, so I don't think we would qualify.

We're lucky in that last week and this week, he got 32 hours work but it's different every week but I assume you need to permanently be on less than 30 hours to claim rent supplement. I think we will be able to manage for now, I have a contract job lined up which starts in April so if I don't find something before then, we will hopefully be able to manage until then.