EEA FP refused: Moscow

[a.s.b.o]

It would appear that the ECM is confirming the decision of the ECO by ignoring the errors you pointed out. One can only speculate its all part of the 'reducing immigration game' - even when it simply means delaying the enevitable (assuming applicants don't just give-up).

A case of let the Tribunal make the decision.

At least you know exactly where you stand with your case at the hearing now that the post has shown their hand.

The post decision evidence remark is a crafty play on words. Post decision documentation is only to be disregarded if it relates to post-decision events/evidence.

Documentation relating to pre-decision status but which was only obtained/provided after the initial decison is perfectly acceptable.

eg bank statements showing the account balance before the decision but obtained after it was made.

Thanks kef,

[a.s.b.o]

belated merry and happy everything to the forum.

We are advancing towards the end of the EEA FP saga with the notice of the hearing popping up in my post box today. the hearing is scheduled for 19 Feb in belfast. Not needing to travel to the mainland is good.

now. the migrant organisation who helped me to submit the appeal essentially saying that their solicitor is out of country and can be of no service. other rep within the same org cannot do that due to insufficient qualifications of some sort. she, however, encourages me to REPRESENT THE CASE WITHOUT A SOLICITOR?!

Her arguments point to the fact that i know the case better than anyone and hence, can do an equal job. her other argument relates to the perceived lack of good immigration specialists in Northern ireland.

i am reluctant due to lack of knowledge of all the legislation by heart. and i i were to undertake that, will there be sufficient time to prepare for the case?!

i will be indebted for your comments and help

[Obie]

Have you done the paginated bundle, indexes, authority you wish to rely on, and evidence of your exercise of treaty rights.

You need to be familiar with Pedro, Lebon, SM India and Jia, as they are the authority on which your case will rely.

You will need a breakdown of how much you provide them monthly, and how this contribute to their basic needs, as opposed to getting them above a particular standard of living.

You will need to do a skeleton, addressing all the issues raised by the Secretary of State, Paragraph by Paragraph, and how this is at variance with established authorities, and principles of community law.

Good luck with the hearing.

[a.s.b.o]

You need to be familiar with Pedro, Lebon, SM India and Jia, as they are the authority on which your case will rely.

Hi Obie

can you please signpost me here?

[a.s.b.o]

The ECM review should have been in the bundle sent to the Tribunal, which in turn will send you a copy bundle very shortly.

When you get the bundle from the tribunal and the ECM review being processed for you, you will the be able to see whether:

a) A dated ECM review was done and sent to the Tribunal.

b) No ECM review was provided to the tribunal

c) A revised ECM has been provided to you.

Its frustrating waiting but the bundle from the tribunal will reveal much about what has (or has not) been happening.

Hi key

no bundle from the tribunal has been received and the date for the tribunal has been set for 19 Feb. shall I request/how do i request one from the tribunal?!

is t his still relevant? i am still curious whether ECM review has been carried out. thanks

[Obie]

Here are the cases.

SM India

Lebon

Jia

The ECM has to send a bundle, it is a legal requirement.

It will give you an idea of their position or what transpired.

Call the presenting officers unit in Belfast, and ask why you have not received the Respondent bundle.

[a.s.b.o]

Gents

could you do me a favour to prepare for the hearing better by outlining the procedure of the hearing, i.e. who presents the case first, whether direct challenge is allowed, whether i can be quizzed by the ukba rep, at what point can i present the case, etc.

on the more important note, my strategy for preparation is a document (in addition to the indexed bundle with all the evidence) in which, in a bulleted format, i address (1) all the issues of refusal and (2) outline my evidence for stating otherwise. is this is the way to prepare for the hearing?!

i really need some direction and am freaking out.

[a.s.b.o]

Good morning gents, can you pls advise me on -

IN THE INDEXED BUNDLE, would one need to include copies of the documents previously submitted as part of the EEA FP application? i imply copies of the passports, evidence of EEA national exercising rights, etc?!

many thanks

[a.s.b.o]

gents, i am under pressure. can you please advise?

[Obie]

The Index bundle should contain relevant documents the judge will need to make a decision. The notice of decision. The passport for the non-EEA family members, copy of your passports, evidence of your relationship, evidence of treaty rights, authorities you wish to rely on.

If some of the docunent you which to rely on is at the post, and they have not served a bundle,inform the judges and ask for the proceedings to be stated or adjourned.

[a.s.b.o]

The Index bundle should contain relevant documents the judge will need to make a decision. The notice of decision. The passport for the non-EEA family members, copy of your passports, evidence of your relationship, evidence of treaty rights, authorities you wish to rely on.

If some of the docunent you which to rely on is at the post, and they have not served a bundle,inform the judges and ask for the proceedings to be stated or adjourned.

thank you obie

the embassy did send any documents, including the ecm. the only documents that the tribunal possesses, is the original bundle that was sent to the tribunal by the embassy.

i have spoken to the legal aid ppl and they do not feel that i should adjourn. they argue that

1. i can prepare a bundle on my own end and serve it to the judge
2. the ukba can submit documents last minute

ADDENDUM

3. there is no bundle which should have been submitted by the ukba representing officer unit

on my end, i have copies of most documents, but definitely not original of my parents' passports and the originals of that nature.

i am confused. pls suggest

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

The prime thing is that you are well organized and prepared.

Have copies of everything relevant.
Be able to explain why the decision was wrong.
Where you know relevant law, be able to point the court to it.

Do not worry about procedure too much.

When is the hearing?

[a.s.b.o]

The prime thing is that you are well organized and prepared.

Have copies of everything relevant.
Be able to explain why the decision was wrong.
Where you know relevant law, be able to point the court to it.

Do not worry about procedure too much.

When is the hearing?

Thanks Directive

the hearing is next Tuesday (they only gave me 9 days notice, including w.end! crazy)

I am still unsure (1) I CAN COME PREPARED, with copies of everything and (2) PROCEDURALLY, being allowed to handle the bundle to the judge (and the respondent?!) and (3) RELY on the evidence on that day?! (4) HOW DO I TURN UKBA FAILURES into my strength?!

i will clearly have to do that while UKBA cocked it up to forward any correspondence to the tribunal!!!!

Can you please advise me on four points above WHICH ARE CRITICAL TO ENABLE ME TO MAKE SENSE OF IT ALL.

Thank you

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

First off you have to relax. Breath in and out.

Remember you are up against UKBA. They often do not even both sending a presenting officer to cases, either because they are so disorganized or because they think they will loose anyway. Other times they withdraw the original decision at the last minute.

You do not need to be 100% perfect. But, for obvious reasons, the better prepared you are the easier and more confident you will be.

Your application primarily hinges on dependency. If you have addition or new evidence of dependency, then by all means organize that and take it with you. And if you are aware of cases that support your application, take references to those.

[a.s.b.o]

First off you have to relax. Breath in and out.

Remember you are up against UKBA. They often do not even both sending a presenting officer to cases, either because they are so disorganized or because they think they will loose anyway. Other times they withdraw the original decision at the last minute.

You do not need to be 100% perfect. But, for obvious reasons, the better prepared you are the easier and more confident you will be.

Your application primarily hinges on dependency. If you have addition or new evidence of dependency, then by all means organize that and take it with you. And if you are aware of cases that support your application, take references to those.

Thanks Directive. I was freaking out that I no longer can support my case by presenting documents which UKBA, in turn, failed to provide to the tribunal. feeling better now.

I have completed most of the structure of my arguments and will post them here for some critical feedback. i will be greatly indebted for feedback

[a.s.b.o]

guys, just an update on the case.

Mixed feelings as the course has been adjourned. Waiting is excruciating.

firstly, i failed to send the bundle 5 days in advance. My fault as i slightly cracked under duress, i think. needless to say the ukba rep only had the letter of refusal, not even their bundle.

judge accused me of trying to ambush the respondent and adjourned. he was really tough in regards to the skeleton argument, which was not, in fairness, formatted by the legal professional. he also told me to get a solicitor.

now, the plan is the following - (1) tidy up the bundle, append everything and do the index. send it in good time. (2) format the skeleton argument.

more importantly,

(3) i feel unhappy to pay for solicitor to simply give a macro level overview of my case and whereby I will be a witness, speak only when spoken to. i feel that i will present the case and evidence better but of course, will be less than convincing on processual side. plus, from the symbolism point of view, will not getting a solicitor infuriate the judge for not sticking to his advice? Dostoevski rhetoric question stands)

thanks for ideas and attention to to the third point.

[a.s.b.o]

anyone pls?!

[a.s.b.o]

gurus?!

[Obie]

You need to sort out the paginated bundle, properly indexed, and the authorities on which you wish to rely on, sent to the Tribunal and the presenting office in Belfast.

[a.s.b.o]

You need to sort out the paginated bundle, properly indexed, and the authorities on which you wish to rely on, sent to the Tribunal and the presenting office in Belfast.

thank you Obie. any ideas on (3)?

[Obie]

The thing is, it is difficult giving advice on this. It is all dependent on which documents you have, and in what chronology they should appear.

I do believe the notice of decision should be first, the passport of the non-national and the EEA sponsor, evidence of Relationship, evidence of Treaty rights, evidence of dependnacy and so on.

Then the index, which should contain where necessary document could be found.

Wish you all the best though.

[a.s.b.o]

Hi guys

We have had a hearing a week ago. I am not ready to write a feedback; however, i promise to do one once thing are not as hectic on my end. I have one question though -

we paid for an oral hearing and expected the decision on the day. The judge noted a substantive bundle of evidence, which he admitted, he did not read and reserved this for a decision on a later date. what was the point with paying for oral hearing if he did not deliver smth we paid extra to have?

thank you

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Oral hearing has nothing to do with same day decision. Oral hearing is about your being in the same room as the judge and HO Presenting Officer and being able to answer questions and ask questions.

[a.s.b.o]

Thank you!

I wander how long can it take for a decision? should it not be 10 days?!

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

I wander how long can it take for a decision? should it not be 10 days?!

Why should it be 10 days?