Naturalisation Questions

[Babz]

Hello,everyone. If there were no social welfare has been cliam and did not work (no tax is paid) since i came to this country on 1997, will that affect applyig citizenship? I was 16 when i came to Ireland and spend two years in boarding school, after that i study in a language school and college for four year but never work becoz my boyfriend was backing me , then we got married on 2005 so that i grant spouse visa (stamp 3 ,not allow to work),my husband got his citizenship on 2009 so i convert my stamp3 to stamp4 on 2010, and we got divorced on 2012 Dec, but before divorced i was already working in a hotel for five months long, then quit it on Jan 2013, so basically i only paid five months tax to revenue office, i am worry if this wiil affect the decision from minister to grant me the citizenshio or not? Thanks very much!!

My wife was on social benefit for much longer. I remember us going to a solicitor and the first thing he asked was if my wife was working and she said NO.And the solicitor told us her chances were next to none.
But that didn't stop us putting in her application. She got her approval letter in just over 8 months. Her neighbor was in the same situation and she got hers last month.
So far you can prove to them you are actively seeking employment (i.e proofs of job applications,responses from employers etc) that should be fine.
That's not saying it's easy though,bearing in mind everybody's case is different. It's worth giving it a try

Actually i have neither cliam any welfare nor engaged any employment.

I thought you said "but before divorced i was already working in a hotel for five months long, then quit it on Jan 2013" in your first post? Anyway,nothing still stops you from applying.

[IntegratedMigrant]

Actually i have neither cliam any welfare nor engaged any employment.

Suspicious, how have you been surviving over the years? It's funny coz if you say this to the Gards one thing comes in mind

[yearofsnake]

Actually i have neither cliam any welfare nor engaged any employment.

Suspicious, how have you been surviving over the years? It's funny coz if you say this to the Gards one thing comes in mind

My guardian paid me the tuition when i was in boarding school and my dad send me the money from home to paid me the tuition and daily spending also my boyfriend was support me as well.that is why I only got the job after the marriage is broken.

[IntegratedMigrant]

My guardian paid me the tuition when i was in boarding school and my dad send me the money from home to paid me the tuition and daily spending also my boyfriend was support me as well.that is why I only got the job after the marriage is broken.

Well you're in luck since being on Social welfare doesn't matter anyone when making a decision on citizenship applications.

Being that you have been residing in this country for about 16 years now and hardly ever worked, you're only likely get your citizenship approved with the current Minister.

You never know what the next Minister will be like and its safe to say that the previous Ministers will deny your citizenship application should you have applied.

[adlexy]

If they travel and live in their country of origin, what happens to their citizenship then?

The Citizenship is generally based on the premise that the applicant will continue to live in the state in the foreseeable future. Except where the applicant has confirmed that he/ she do not intend to stay in Ireland AFTER the application is granted.

According to section 6 and Question 6.1:

"DO YOU INTEND, FOLLOWING NATURALISATION, TO HAVE YOUR USUAL OR PRINCIPAL PLACE OF RESIDENCE IN THE STATE?"

Most applicant probably answered YES

I think all Naturalised Citizens should protest or write some form of a letter to the Minister explaining this.

I do not see a basis for the above suggestion. The application requirement (for the foreseeable future) is clear. Where there is a valid reason for departure from that, it then gives an alternate condition to fulfil - register at least once a year in the state where you now live.

And generally, I do not see the difficulty in updating your record every year with 'your' embassy, since it is a requirement/ condition of the granting of citizenship. Apart from that, there is also the critical need if there is an emergency, it makes it easy for the embassy to know who they have not bee able to reach or who may need assistance.

And for some countries, this is not limited to naturalised citizens alone. Every one of their citizen is encouraged to register and update their records "regularly" with the embassy.

All the best

[IntegratedMigrant]

I think all Naturalised Citizens should protest or write some form of a letter to the Minister explaining this.

I do not see a basis for the above suggestion. The application requirement (for the foreseeable future) is clear. Where there is a valid reason for departure from that, it then gives an alternate condition to fulfil - register at least once a year in the state where you now live.

And generally, I do not see the difficulty in updating your record every year with 'your' embassy, since it is a requirement/ condition of the granting of citizenship. Apart from that, there is also the critical need if there is an emergency, it makes it easy for the embassy to know who they have not bee able to reach or who may need assistance.

And for some countries, this is not limited to naturalised citizens alone. Every one of their citizen is encouraged to register and update their records "regularly" with the embassy.

All the best

I strongly disagree with comments. Firstly may I ask if you are naturalised?
Secondly naturalised citizens dont have to bear in mind all the time that if they did not register their intention to retain Irish citizenship that it may be revoked!. This is simply like an immigrant in Ireland renewing their stamps every year or else they will be illegal!
This is totally different from what you're talking about!

Born Irish citizens dont have to do that!, neither it is a must that they have to register their details in the embassy of the country that they currently resides. It depends on them really to decide what to do!.

By the way, it seems like you dont know that there is a form to fill every year to retain citizenship which by the way must be signed by a solictor!. Another unnecessary money spend every year for nothing! Naturalised citizens are like mere immigrants residing in Ireland and it shouldn't be that way!

[IntegratedMigrant]

If they travel and live in their country of origin, what happens to their citizenship then?

The Citizenship is generally based on the premise that the applicant will continue to live in the state in the foreseeable future. Except where the applicant has confirmed that he/ she do not intend to stay in Ireland AFTER the application is granted.

According to section 6 and Question 6.1:

"DO YOU INTEND, FOLLOWING NATURALISATION, TO HAVE YOUR USUAL OR PRINCIPAL PLACE OF RESIDENCE IN THE STATE?"

Most applicant probably answered YES

Being a Naturalised Irish Citizen does not mean you denounced your previous citizenship. Ireland allows dual citizenship so Naturalised citizens could reside in the country they were born as long as they please without the need to filling a bloody form every year for the embassy.

There are so much into these that you may get lost if I try to explain.
e.g How can they track Naturalised citizens? Even if they do.
It is impossible for Ireland to track thousands of Naturalised Irish Citizenship every year to know their way-abouts. There is no system set up for that!

Also you must know that hundred or maybe thousands of Naturalised Citizens are living outside Ireland for years now without the need of declaring the intention to retain it and the Irish government are not doing anything about it. Because it is purely impossible to deal with it

[adlexy]

I strongly disagree with comments. Firstly may I ask if you are naturalised?

That question is irrelevant to this debate.

Secondly naturalised citizens dont have to bear in mind all the time that if they did not register their intention to retain Irish citizenship that it may be revoked!.

Why not? It is the condition and I will assume most applicant are aware of this fact before an application is submitted. It may not be convenient but that is the condition attached to the process at this time.

Born Irish citizens dont have to do that!, neither it is a must that they have to register their details in the embassy of the country that they currently resides. It depends on them really to decide what to do!.

That explains clearly the difference between Irish by birth and naturalisation. Naturalisation is NOT a right; it is a privilege and that is why the clause that it can be revoked is there.

By the way, it seems like you dont know that there is a form to fill every year to retain citizenship which by the way must be signed by a solictor!. Another unnecessary money spend every year for nothing! Naturalised citizens are like mere immigrants residing in Ireland and it shouldn't be that way!

Well, in as much as I want to agree with you that this is not convenient, the position of the law on citizenship is that if you have decided to move out of the state; you must of necessity register at the embassy.

All the best

[adlexy]

Being a Naturalised Irish Citizen does not mean you denounced your previous citizenship. Ireland allows dual citizenship so Naturalised citizens could reside in the country they were born as long as they please without the need to filling a bloody form every year for the embassy.

I dont remember suggesting that you have to renounce your previous citizenship of birth.

I also dont think it is a "bloody" form

There are so much into these that you may get lost if I try to explain.

And what are you going to explain that you think I will be "lost?" You must consider yourself an "authority" on these matters

e.g How can they track Naturalised citizens? Even if they do.
It is impossible for Ireland to track thousands of Naturalised Irish Citizenship every year to know their way-abouts. There is no system set up for that!

Now you are beginning to worry about other things.
I am not sure you need to worry about the state tracking thousands. Just follow the rules set down - just like a drivers licence. I have had it and driven in Ireland for almost 7 years. No Garda ever asked me for it; but I am compelled by the law to carry it as long as I am behind the wheel driving .

Also you must know that hundred or maybe thousands of Naturalised Citizens are living outside Ireland for years now without the need of declaring the intention to retain it and the Irish government are not doing anything about it. Because it is purely impossible to deal with it

Having identified that this is impossible to track, what then is the Wisdom of writing the MoJ&E to complain about a process that is obviously flawed in your opinion? Just like the analogy of the DL, the state is not looking for everyone, they are looking for one person who fail to follow the rules. You can choose to be part of the crowd that ignore it; you can also choose to follow the rule

All the best

[IntegratedMigrant]

Firstly may I ask if you are naturalised?

That question is irrelevant to this debate.

That says it all. the reason why I asked that is to know truly if you are Naturalised or not. Sometimes it hard to think outside the box if you're not in it.

You have to be naturalised to understand my point and I have never seen any naturalised person arguing about this.

Please lets agree to disagree so. I tend to only debate this with a naturalised Irish Citizen!

[IntegratedMigrant]

Secondly naturalised citizens dont have to bear in mind all the time that if they did not register their intention to retain Irish citizenship that it may be revoked!.

Why not? It is the condition and I will assume most applicant are aware of this fact before an application is submitted. It may not be convenient but that is the condition attached to the process at this time.

Nobody says its not the condition. Its just that the condition is nonsensical and should be amended!.

[IntegratedMigrant]

Born Irish citizens dont have to do that!, neither it is a must that they have to register their details in the embassy of the country that they currently resides. It depends on them really to decide what to do!.

That explains clearly the difference between Irish by birth and naturalisation. Naturalisation is NOT a right; it is a privilege and that is why the clause that it can be revoked is there.

Such privilege shouldn't be given at the first place if it can be revoked for something very nonsensical. Most countries only revoke your citizenship if you received it through fraud or concealment of facts. This is enough for your so called "NOT a right".

[IntegratedMigrant]

By the way, it seems like you dont know that there is a form to fill every year to retain citizenship which by the way must be signed by a solictor!. Another unnecessary money spend every year for nothing! Naturalised citizens are like mere immigrants residing in Ireland and it shouldn't be that way!

Well, in as much as I want to agree with you that this is not convenient, the position of the law on citizenship is that if you have decided to move out of the state; you must of necessity register at the embassy.

Which I think is totally absurd.

[IntegratedMigrant]

Being a Naturalised Irish Citizen does not mean you denounced your previous citizenship. Ireland allows dual citizenship so Naturalised citizens could reside in the country they were born as long as they please without the need to filling a bloody form every year for the embassy.

I dont remember suggesting that you have to renounce your previous citizenship of birth.

I also dont think it is a "bloody" form

I never said you suggest that you have to renounce your previous citizenship, did I? And its a "bloody" form to me as far as im concern

[IntegratedMigrant]

Also you must know that hundred or maybe thousands of Naturalised Citizens are living outside Ireland for years now without the need of declaring the intention to retain it and the Irish government are not doing anything about it. Because it is purely impossible to deal with it

Having identified that this is impossible to track, what then is the Wisdom of writing the MoJ&E to complain about a process that is obviously flawed in your opinion?

Simply because it still could be "revoked!".

[IntegratedMigrant]

@adlexy
You have clearly stated your opinions and so have I. Lets leave it to the readers to decide.

I should remind you that this thread is for "Naturalisation Questions" and not for its debate. You can open a new thread if you still want to go on about it? Thanks.

[biggerjosh]

Being a naturalized Irish is a bit different as there are conditions attached i.e 7 years outside the country and enrolling yourself with the embassy,filling out the form and even when u have a child in another country u have to get the FBR and then only u will get the passport for the child where as if u were born Irish there are no strings attached.
I personally feel that the conditions should be amended and all citizens should be treated equally but having said that u already know that there are strings attached so no complaints.

[jeupsy]

I think anyone reasonnable will agree the condition doesn't make sense. Being a citizen is not something that should be taken away after it is granted; and the fact that it is never being done by the State shows it does agree. Also I would be interested to know how many contries have that rule, but I would say there are very few or maybe none.

In my view, this rule makes citizens not equal before the law (as the law includes additional requirements for a naturalised citizens). It probably goes against the constitution of most western countries including Ireland (Article 40.1 clearly states that "All citizens shall, as human persons, be held equal before the law").

On to of that, so people will have to give up their previous citizenship to become Irish (I think most Asian and South American countries don't allow dual citizenship).

If a Chinese national becomes Irish, and then moves to London (they wouldn't be the first Irish person doint that) ... wouldn't it be a bit ridiculous to take away their citizenship after 7 years? And what are they supposed to do afterwards?

If Ireland as a country is afraid of what naturalised citizens might do, it is free to restrict access to citizenship. But once someone is a citizen, they should have duties but also rights which are exactly the same as other citizens.

[adlexy]

You have to be naturalised to understand my point and I have never seen any naturalised person arguing about this.

I still think it is irrelevant. However, just so that you know, I am not just a naturalised Irish Citizen but also that of another Non-Shengen EU state.

I tend to only debate this with a naturalised Irish Citizen!

In view of the above, I can confirm you have been debating with a naturalised Irish.

[IntegratedMigrant]

Being a naturalized Irish is a bit different as there are conditions attached i.e 7 years outside the country and enrolling yourself with the embassy,filling out the form and even when u have a child in another country u have to get the FBR and then only u will get the passport for the child where as if u were born Irish there are no strings attached.
I personally feel that the conditions should be amended and all citizens should be treated equally but having said that u already know that there are strings attached so no complaints.

Well said

[IntegratedMigrant]

I am not just a naturalised Irish Citizen but also that of another Non-Shengen EU state.

I know you would say that. I am sorry but I dont believe you really are. Anyways best of luck with your opinions and point of view.

[IntegratedMigrant]

I think anyone reasonnable will agree the condition doesn't make sense. Being a citizen is not something that should be taken away after it is granted

In my view, this rule makes citizens not equal before the law (as the law includes additional requirements for a naturalised citizens). It probably goes against the constitution of most western countries including Ireland (Article 40.1 clearly states that "All citizens shall, as human persons, be held equal before the law").

If Ireland as a country is afraid of what naturalised citizens might do, it is free to restrict access to citizenship. But once someone is a citizen, they should have duties but also rights which are exactly the same as other citizens.

I just couldnt agree more. Well said

[adlexy]

I know you would say that. I am sorry but I dont believe you really are. Anyways best of luck with your opinions and point of view.

Just because you dont believe me does not diminish the fact that I am a naturalised Irish.

Sometimes, it is sensible to see things from a different perspective and not necessarily that perspective that makes you happy. I wish you all the best too my Irish friend

[IntegratedMigrant]

Just because you dont believe me does not diminish the fact that I am a naturalised Irish.

Sometimes, it is sensible to see things from a different perspective and not necessarily that perspective that makes you happy. I wish you all the best too my Irish friend

You can still claim that you're naturalised 100 times and 100 times I still wont believe you, No offense. There is no point going on and on about it. And as I've said, best of luck with you views and opinions, you're so entitled to them.

[Angel592]

Sorry can someone please give me the INIS email?