Actually, a very bad news for Tier 1 general holders

[letmec2006]

I think we are panicking too much too soon.
UKBA not even clear with what they are asking for, there are conflicting info everyday even in their website.
If they think going out of the country on short holiday breaks the continuity, that is a human rights issue I think.
Anyway until we get first hand info from applicants or clearer message from UKBA, for why they are asking these infomation.
We can't do anything about it now.
Regards

[deleted_user]

I think we are over analysing this. Can someone kindly point me to the latest guidance/rules pdf/page (final version not list of changes delete this here add that there etc.) and I will try and forward it to our company immigration lawyer to get his opinion. I would appreciate we don't email UKBA and give them new ideas on how to interpret these rules to block us from applying ILR which we have rightfully earned. Thanks.

[ldbright]

Here you go, it is Page 20 where the confusion is from.

Thank you for doing this

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... iew=Binary

I think we are over analysing this. Can someone kindly point me to the latest guidance/rules pdf/page (final version not list of changes delete this here add that there etc.) and I will try and forward it to our company immigration lawyer to get his opinion. I would appreciate we don't email UKBA and give them new ideas on how to interpret these rules to block us from applying ILR which we have rightfully earned. Thanks.

[deleted_user]

Page 20

Absences must be connected to the applicant’s sponsored or permitted employment, or the
permitted economic activity being carried out in the UK, for example, business trips or short
secondments. This also includes, if appropriate, any paid annual leave.

When I read this I understand that absences connected to employment (including paid annual leave) do not break the period. When they say connected to employment they mean the employment is still active in the UK and the individual is still in employment in the UK. Letter from employer saying you were on paid annual leave will evidence this. Who in their right mind is going to take paid annual leave to do work for the company abroad?

This idea is further emphasized by page 21

If the absences are in connection with other employment outside the UK, which
demonstrates the UK employment is secondary, these are not permitted absences, and the
continuous period requirement is considered broken.

So your UK employment should be your primary one.

[ldbright]

But if you read the example they give i.e business trip, short secondments...they both are business related activities.

Page 20

Absences must be connected to the applicant’s sponsored or permitted employment, or the
permitted economic activity being carried out in the UK, for example, business trips or short
secondments. This also includes, if appropriate, any paid annual leave.

When I read this I understand that absences connected to employment (including paid annual leave) do not break the period. When they say connected to employment they mean the employment is still active in the UK and the individual is still in employment in the UK. Who is going to take paid annual leave to do work for the company abroad?

[/quote]

[deleted_user]

@ldbright

True but they are only examples.

As long as you are showing ties to the UK employer during your leave you should be ok, whether business or personal paid leave. Leave for other compelling cases (death of family etc) you should give evidence accordingly.

Ofcourse the additional hurdle here is getting the letter. If you later left the employment on bad terms or were dismissed the previous employer may not want to help you with any letters now. Its better to request any letters at time of leaving then retrospectively.

[ukswus]

From this response, looks like they don't want to grant ILR in cases of uinpaid leave. Moreover, when employers refuse to provide letters of absences, they want to have their contact information to verify this is indeed the case (and what if employers refuse to cooperate in such cases with the applicants?)

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/cy/reque ... _ilr_rules

Looks like a very draconian policy to me.

[nadnet]

What I have to do if I can't get a letter from my former employer about my annual leave, that I had 5 years ago? Goodbye, ILR?

[DiamondBA]

From this response, looks like they don't want to grant ILR in cases of uinpaid leave. Moreover, when employers refuse to provide letters of absences, they want to have their contact information to verify this is indeed the case (and what if employers refuse to cooperate in such cases with the applicants?)

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/cy/reque ... _ilr_rules

Let's imagine situation:
Friday evening, 7pm, you're boarding train to Paris, spending Saturday and Sunday in France and returning on Sun evening. No paid annual leave, not considering days of arrival and departure (Fri and Sun) - you have Sat, as personal, not related to employment absence.

Another situation:
You're taking 5 days of paid annual leave - Mon to Fri, leaving UK on Sat before paid leave and returning on Sun after paid leave. You have all letters from your employer about paid leave for 5 days, not considering days of arrival and departure - you have Sun before paid leave, and Sat after as personal, not related to employment absences.

[hsmpilr]

From this response, looks like they don't want to grant ILR in cases of uinpaid leave. Moreover, when employers refuse to provide letters of absences, they want to have their contact information to verify this is indeed the case (and what if employers refuse to cooperate in such cases with the applicants?)

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/cy/reque ... _ilr_rules

Let's imagine situation:
Friday evening, 7pm, you're boarding train to Paris, spending Saturday and Sunday in France and returning on Sun evening. No paid annual leave, not considering days of arrival and departure (Fri and Sun) - you have Sat, as personal, not related to employment absence.

UKBA has lots of sentences all over the place scattered but not a single place which gives clear and crisp information on scenarios. When we took the extensions of visas these rules were not there (can someone confirm this please) and they cannot apply complications retrospectively without thinking twice.
I think (hope) soon we are going to see amendments to the rules.

Else ... can someone tell me what is the procedure to start a judicial review of the rules ? Clarifications are no use anymore since we will get answers which will further confuse us.

[deleted_user]

In my opinion the rules being confusing is good for us the applicants.
Because while in the eyes of UKBA you are guilty until you prove yourself innocent, in the eyes of the law everyone is innocent until proven guilty.

So if the rules are vague and you go to court the court will side with you and tell the other party to clarify their rules and grant you protection (from unclear rules).

So if someone is rejected on such technicality feel free to challenge these idiots in court. The fact that you were resident and economically active in the UK for 5 years should also grant you protection under Human Rights acts, unless by some document published by HO immigrants are not considered human anymore. I wouldn't be surprised if there was one or they came up with one.

Here is a start:
Unless you have 4 limbs and consume 5 pieces of fruit and veg a day to stay alive, breath 95% pure Spam, 24 hours every day and have copulated with another organism who also satisfy above criteria, you are not human. Submit a piece of evidence for each of above for last 5 years.

LOL

[hsmpilr]

Another situation:
You're taking 5 days of paid annual leave - Mon to Fri, leaving UK on Sat before paid leave and returning on Sun after paid leave. You have all letters from your employer about paid leave for 5 days, not considering days of arrival and departure - you have Sun before paid leave, and Sat after as personal, not related to employment absences.

Only whole days are counted. Although your scenario is a valid one ; yes office says you are on leave from monday to friday (paid) whereas you have to account for saturday which is still paid leave. I think we must consider all the weekends are paid leave days. This scenario will be an issue only for daily-paid jobs.

I also cannot digest this issue about this paid leave sentence. Employment can be considered as important but as-long-as I am in employment and my finances are in good shape with good savings, why am I not allowed to go outside the country ? I do not want to accumulate whole of my paid leaves to just go out of country ... I want to use them freely both inside and outside

Another scenario... 25 days leave and I spend 15 days in 2 months each week doing some sight-seeing trip in UK and I am left with 10 days. Now I have to attend my friend-s marriage for 15 days ... what next ?
Even if proof is given in the form of marriage invitation, how to prove to UKBA that this particular person is my friend ? corollary is can I produce any evidence in the period ?
eg:- ukba says give death certificate... now how to prove that the death certificate is really my close relative ? I can go to corporation site in India and find tens of poeople dead on the day I want to prove and just give any death certificate ?

What is the definition of close relative and there is no way to prove/ show evidence for relationship of uncles or aunts or friends ...

[DiamondBA]

Just curious, if Saturday in France breaking continuous residence in UK, does it mean that every entrance to UK person is becoming resident again and 1-year period of validity for international driving license resetting, and the same happening to tax periods?

[hsmpilr]

Between HC-1038 and HC-1039 I see only 3 days gap. So they can change rules in 3 days. I think this time there needs to be modification to the rules for more clearer explanation.

[hsmpilr]

This is too much disturbing again

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/cy/reque ... _ilr_rules

So they are standing-by their rules ? Unpaid leave means bye-bye ILR ?

And tier2 are respected more than tier1 since they do not have to show any evidences ?
and so are the self-employed tier1 ?

[deleted_user]

@hsmpilr

Sorry but looks like now they are making up rules.
Why should employer provide details of all leave even those days when applicant was in UK since they were not absent from uk what does it prove?

[gaugupta]

Hi,

Take my case I came to UK in November 2008 on Tier1 (General).
I got the job after 1.5 yrs in April 2010.
For 1.5 yrs I was not working for any employer in UK during that time I went to India twice for 30 days each.

Now I can't get any letter from employer related with absence so it means they will not consider it continuous period.


Thanks

Gaurav

[hsmpilr]

Again

What is the procedure to go for judicial review ? This looks ridiculous and our hopes are going down... they are looking like standing-by the rules however illogical the rules may be to us.

Can someone kindly point me to the procedure for judicial review ... can we do it ourselves or does this need to go via a solicitor ? in which case all of us who are affected can share and pay for this ...


Again there is no information from anybody who went for ILR since 6th Apr ... isnt there a single ILR success since ? in Tier1 general permanently employed category ?

[hsmpilr]

@hsmpilr

Sorry but looks like now they are making up rules.
Why should employer provide details of all leave even those days when applicant was in UK since they were not absent from uk what does it prove?

They may endup sending a letter to all employers to ask them to give the requested information. But this does *NOT* cover the unpaid leaves... This is still my concern...

[hsmpilr]

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/cy/reque ... _ilr_rules


Where an employer is either unwilling or unable to provide the dates of
annual leave taken by the applicant throughout the continuous period, the
applicant should submit a letter of explanation containing the contact
details of their employer with the application form, as the deciding
officer will need to verify this.

Does this mean PEO appointments will not be decided on the day ?

[ldbright]

Now we are talking about even holidays taken within the UK maybe need to be listed and clarified by the Employer(??). This is just getting messier as how many of you remember the days you take within the UK over the 5 years?

[hsmpilr]

Now we are talking about even holidays taken within the UK maybe need to be listed and clarified by the Employer(??). This is just getting messier as how many of you remember the days you take within the UK over the 5 years?

No this refers to only unpaid leaves outside UK ...

[apahuja]

Now we are talking about even holidays taken within the UK maybe need to be listed and clarified by the Employer(??). This is just getting messier as how many of you remember the days you take within the UK over the 5 years?

No this refers to only unpaid leaves outside UK ...

*ALL PAID LEAVES" should be mentioned in the *LETTER FROM EMPLOYER* Irrespective of *INSIDE OR OUTSIDE UK* as those were paid leaves . I have already confirmed this with UKBA by calling them and she was pretty sure about this. And in addition to these , we should provide all relevant supporting evidences related to absences (I believe mainly outside UK, cannot say if they need those for in country as well ).

[hsmpilr]

Now we are talking about even holidays taken within the UK maybe need to be listed and clarified by the Employer(??). This is just getting messier as how many of you remember the days you take within the UK over the 5 years?

No this refers to only unpaid leaves outside UK ...

*ALL PAID LEAVES" should be mentioned in the *LETTER FROM EMPLOYER* Irrespective of *INSIDE OR OUTSIDE UK* as those were paid leaves . I have already confirmed this with UKBA by calling them and she was pretty sure about this. And in addition to these , we should provide all relevant supporting evidences related to absences (I believe mainly outside UK, cannot say if they need those for in country as well ).

Does this mean a single unpaid leave even for a day means break in the continuous period of residence ? The years gets reset ?

[[iD]]

I'm not even a least bit bothered tbh.
I have had total of two absences from the UK during 5 years. For one I was employed and had to leave the country because of my mother's death and for the second one I wasn't employed so I have just written a letter myself stating the fact that I was absent from the country to visit my family back home.

If anything, I'll provide my mum's death certificate with it.

I'm not in prison, I'm a free man who is and will travel anywhere he wants to. As long as those visits outside the country aren't excessive I am within my rights and my continuity of my stay in the UK doesn't break.

Anyway, one of my mate had his appointment on 8th at Solihull and he wasn't even asked for the absence letter, neither did he provide any and he got his ILR approved.