Is Surinder Singh for us?

[Stuart Robinson]

Hello all,

My name is Stuart, originally from Skelmersdale, just outside Liverpool, England.
I am a British citizen and UK passport holder, now living in Harbin, China.

I met my Chinese wife, several years ago, and we married last summer here in China.
I have lived in China for around 4 years, and we still live in China to this day.


I have been offered a job in Germany, which will last 6 months.
We plan to use this employment, as "exercising my treaty rights" with the Surinder Singh ruling, where I the EEA national will work and live in another EU country, (Germany) but not my home country (UK)

We plan to remain in Germany and set up a rented apartment, mobile phone, bank account etc in my/our names.
Then apply to the rathause for regerstration of our living at our rented German apartment.

During our time in Germany, where I will be "exercising my treaty rights", should I (we) persue the family permit from a UK consulate in Germany, or simply when the time is right, just arrive on the door steps of the UKBA at The Port of Calais?

We would have overwhelming historic proof, and ample documentation of a sustained durable marriage, proof of exercising treaty rights, by way of payslips, contract for rented apartment, and ask them to issue my wife with their A1 passport stamp?

From what I have read here (thanks to everyone) that it doesn't really matter too much either way, the family permit, or directly for the A1 stamp.

Next, assuming all runs well at The Port of Calais, we should be ferry bound for UK.

I don't have a house in UK, but we have been offered temporary accommodation at my brothers house.
So we will either need to apply for social housing from where I came from in Skelmersdale, and possibly tell them I am homeless. Not good I know.
My savings will be less than £10,000.

As soon as we get a UK address, we should then look to apply for my wifes national insurance number, so she can start looking for work, and also complete her EEA2 application.

Can any one please tell me where I am going to have difficulty please.

Sorry for the long post with so many questions.

Thanks to all.

Stuart.

[Jambo]

Sounds like a plan.

Calais or consulate doesn't really matter. It's more a choice of mode of transport. If by air, you will need EEA FP. In general, I would recommend getting a EEA FP while in Germany as it would force you to make sure you got all the required documents. It might be difficult to obtain them later after you move back home.

[fysicus]

The case sounds pretty much straightforward.

I would advise to make sure you have translations into English and into German of your marriage certificate and of your wife's birth certificate, and very soon after arriving in Germany and starting your job there, apply for a German Residence Card (Aufenthaltskarte) for your wife, and when you have that, apply for an EEA Family Permit for her.

The A1 stamp that you mention is a British thing (actually code 1A), although a similar thing exists for the Schengen area as well. However, I think it is easiest to apply for a Schengenvisa for your wife before leaving China, which should be issued free of charge.

We plan to remain in Germany and set up a rented apartment, mobile phone, bank account etc in my/our names.

No doubt all of these are of high practical use while living in Germany, but they are not necessary for your subsequent Surinder Singh application in UK. Your employment contract, and an extract from the population register should be enough to prove that you exercised treaty rights there.
As long as you do not need help from public funds, the amount of savings is irrelevant for the outcome of your application.

And familiarise yourself with the actual European Directive, as found on http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 038:EN:NOT

[Stuart Robinson]

Sounds like a plan.

Calais or consulate doesn't really matter. It's more a choice of mode of transport. If by air, you will need EEA FP. In general, I would recommend getting a EEA FP while in Germany as it would force you to make sure you got all the required documents. It might be difficult to obtain them later after you move back home.

.
Dear Jambo,
Please let me thank you for being the first to reply.

My brother in UK, will bring my car to us in Germany, (Dover - Dunkirk ferry) then he will fly back to Liverpool.
So we will have my car, as I will be using it to get to work and back every day in Germany.
My UK insurance will be extended for 6 months use in EU.
It will be MoT'd and UK taxed.
So our plan was to actuall drive from Germany to Calais, then see the UKBA officers.

I will take your advice, and ensure my wife applies for her EEA FP while in Germany.
After how long I will have been working in Germany should my wife apply for her EEA FP?

If you can think of any more, please don't hesitate to reply.
We wish to make this as smooth as possible, with all the "i" dotted and all the "t" crossed.

Stuart.

[Stuart Robinson]

The case sounds pretty much straightforward.

I would advise to make sure you have translations into English and into German of your marriage certificate and of your wife's birth certificate, and very soon after arriving in Germany and starting your job there, apply for a German Residence Card (Aufenthaltskarte) for your wife, and when you have that, apply for an EEA Family Permit for her.

The A1 stamp that you mention is a British thing (actually code 1A), although a similar thing exists for the Schengen area as well. However, I think it is easiest to apply for a Schengenvisa for your wife before leaving China, which should be issued free of charge.

We plan to remain in Germany and set up a rented apartment, mobile phone, bank account etc in my/our names.

No doubt all of these are of high practical use while living in Germany, but they are not necessary for your subsequent Surinder Singh application in UK. Your employment contract, and an extract from the population register should be enough to prove that you exercised treaty rights there.
As long as you do not need help from public funds, the amount of savings is irrelevant for the outcome of your application.

And familiarise yourself with the actual European Directive, as found on http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 038:EN:NOT

.
.
Dear fysicus, thank you for such a long and detailed reply.
Sorry for taking so much of your time.
I have broken down the sections, as ifeel I may get confused, hope you don't mind.


1/ Thanks for the translation suggestions,, when we married in Harbin, China, all Sino/foreign marriages are automatically produced in Chinese and English, from the marriage bureau.
I believe English is the only language they translate to as a matter of course, even if the foreigner is German, or Spanish, the alternate translation is always English.
So I will take you sound advice, and have our English marriage documents, translated into German.



2/ How long after I start work in Germany should my wife apply for a German Residence Card (Aufenthaltskarte) ?



3/ When she has that, how long then should we wait before her application for an EEA Family Permit for her?



4/ We have spoken to the German embassy/consulate in Beijing, and they have confirmed her German Schengen visa will be free, and will take about 2 days, and they have kindly listed the documents needed to supply he Schengen visa, which are exacly the bare minimum, for the spouse of an EEA national.
So, hat's off to the German embassy/consulate in Beijing for their German efficiency



5/ "My employment contract, and an extract from the population register" is this part documentation for the EEA Family Permit application at a UK embassy/consulate in Germany?


Please, if I have missed any point, or misinterpreted any parts of your reply, please correct me.


Thanks,

Stuart

[fysicus]

Regarding your questions 2 and 3: there is no reason to wait with any of these. Start these applications as soon as you have sorted out your initial settlement issues, and definitely do not postpone it to the last moment.

Resist the temptation to submit redundant supporting documents; it will only put sand in the German efficiency machine...

Your question 5: yes, because you are British, your wife is only eligible for an EEA FP when you are exercising treaty rights in another memberstate (in your case: living and working in Germany).

I also saw your reply to Jambo: what you are planning to do with your car is definitely illegal. Of course everybody in Europe can drive in his own car to another EU country for holiday or other temporary trips, but your car has to be registered (and insured) in the country where you live!

And finally: I would not be surprised that you would like your life in Germany so much that you don't bother to return to the UK in the foreseeable future...

[Mark.Boats]

I also saw your reply to Jambo: what you are planning to do with your car is definitely illegal. Of course everybody in Europe can drive in his own car to another EU country for holiday or other temporary trips, but your car has to be registered (and insured) in the country where you live!

As far as I'm aware...

As long as his UK insurance policy covers the minimum required by domestic German law, and his MOT and VED is valid in the UK, he is perfectly legal to drive for up to twelve months, after which he should register the car locally...

[fysicus]

Can you back that up with a link to an authoritive source?

I very much doubt it: OP will be a resident of Germany with no recent EU residency as he lived in China for the last four years or so.

I don't know the exact rules in Germany, but in Holland he would have only 14 days to get his car registered (after importing it into the country, or becoming resident, whichever is the later).

[Mark.Boats]

Can you back that up with a link to an authoritive source?

Foreigners staying temporarily are allowed to drive their imported motor vehicles with their home license plates and registrations in Germany for a period of up to 12 months, as long as the registration does not expire. A registration document with a German translation is required. The use of the vehicle is duty and tax free for 6 months only. (see Section 2 b Customs, Tariffs and lmport Taxes).

Information supplied by the German Consulate General in Montreal

When I temporarily imported my own UK vehicle for four months while living and working in France there were no other considerations than to make sure VED and MOT were up to date in the UK and my UK insurance policy covered me where I planned to travel.

[fysicus]

The link you provided only claims that this information was supplied by the German Consulate more than fifteen years ago. IMHO: anyone who relies on it today, does so at their own risk!

[Mark.Boats]

The link you provided only claims that this information was supplied by the German Consulate more than fifteen years ago. IMHO: anyone who relies on it today, does so at their own risk!

Where did I say the OP should rely on it?

[Mark.Boats]

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/ve ... dex_en.htm

If you keep your normal residence from your Member State but you stay in another EU country for less than 6 months, you do not have to register your car or pay any taxes there - it will remain registered in your country of residence.

If you are staying in another EU country for less than 6 months and have not registered your car there, you may not legally lend or rent your car to a resident of that country, who may only drive your car if you are in the car with him/her.

You may, however, lend your car to visiting friends or family - provided they are not resident in your new country.

If you are staying in another country for more than 6 months, you should normally change your residence to this country and you must register your car there.

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/ve ... dex_en.htm

Car registration and taxes [In Germany]
Vehicle registration rules for new residents
Once you have registered as a new resident with municipal authorities, you must also register your vehicle.

As a British Citizen, OP automatically has rights to work in Germany, and doesn't need to register residency in Germany, hence doesn't need to re-register his car for a stay under six months...

Previous comments regarding UK insurance, VED and MOT remain the same...

[fysicus]

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/ve ... dex_en.htm

Car registration and taxes [In Germany]
Vehicle registration rules for new residents
Once you have registered as a new resident with municipal authorities, you must also register your vehicle.

As a British Citizen, OP automatically has rights to work in Germany, and doesn't need to register residency in Germany, hence doesn't need to re-register his car for a stay under six months

In the UK there is no residents register, but in most EU countries there is, and everybody living in such country (including the natives) has to register himself. EU nationals are only exempt from this requirement for stays of less than three months (directive 2004/38, article 8.1).

[Stuart Robinson]

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/ve ... dex_en.htm

Car registration and taxes [In Germany]
Vehicle registration rules for new residents
Once you have registered as a new resident with municipal authorities, you must also register your vehicle.

As a British Citizen, OP automatically has rights to work in Germany, and doesn't need to register residency in Germany, hence doesn't need to re-register his car for a stay under six months

In the UK there is no residents register, but in most EU countries there is, and everybody living in such country (including the natives) has to register himself. EU nationals are only exempt from this requirement for stays of less than three months (directive 2004/38, article 8.1).

.
Dear Mark and fysicus,

I think the best thing I should do is ask the authorities when I arrive.
If they say 3 months, or 6 months, or no months, well so be it.
I guess I could buy a small left hand drive car there for not too much money, get some car insurance on it, and make sure it is tested.

Thanks once again to every one.

Stu.

[fysicus]

I think the best thing I should do is ask the authorities when I arrive.
If they say 3 months, or 6 months, or no months, well so be it.
I guess I could buy a small left hand drive car there for not too much money, get some car insurance on it, and make sure it is tested.

It's probably even better to ask before you arrive.
I also think it's a lot less hassle to buy a second-hand car locally, and sell it again when you leave.
Importing a car privately has its own mountain of paperwork attached to it, and you would need to do it twice (second time when you move from Germany to UK).

[Stuart Robinson]

Dear fysicus, and every one,

Thank you very much for all your advise and suggestions.

To give ourselves as little problems as possible, I will forget about bringing our UK car to Germany.

So I feel far easier to buy a small Opel Kadett, (Astra) then sell the car just before we leave Germany.



So the general feeling is that

1/ My wife apply should for a German Residence Card (Aufenthaltskarte) and
2/ Her application for an EEA Family Permit
as soon as we complete our initial settlement issues.

This is fantastic news.

i really am amazed at the information I have learnt here.

So it looks like Surinder Singh route, should not be any problem for us?

Any more tips or clues any one can suggest, then we would be more than happy to receive.

Stu.

[rogerlongships]

You realise that you yourself have to rgister yourself for the "right of residence" if staying for more than 3 months?

As already stated, you can take/use a UK registerd vehicle for up to 12 months without having to import it. I have done exactly this in Sweden. All UK insurance does cover 3rd party liability in europe, BUT, some insurers may want to limit the time you can drive the vehicle outside the UK, some as little as 21 days. Buying a local runabout is probably a good idea.

Sounds like you got everything else sorted. Good luck with it all.

[rogerlongships]

From reading yesterday. If you get your wife a "right of residence as family member of an EU citizen" residence card in Germany, then you wont need an EEA Family Permit. It seems UKBA now accept German and Estonian resident cards as a visa. Pity they dont see the Swedish issued card in the same light......

[Stuart Robinson]

From reading yesterday. If you get your wife a "right of residence as family member of an EU citizen" residence card in Germany, then you wont need an EEA Family Permit. It seems UKBA now accept German and Estonian resident cards as a visa. Pity they dont see the Swedish issued card in the same light......

.
Hello Roger,

Pardon my question, but I am not quite following you here.

Are you suggesting that when both myself (as the EU [UK] national) register our residence address at the rathaus, which is generally "The Town Hall" then this is then sufficient to enter UK?

I have not heard of this before.
Is it some thing new? as I thought we had discovered all the in's and out's of moving to Germany for 6 months.
I am sure my wife will need the EEA family Permit, issued by the local UK embassy/consulate.

I found this interesting links

http://www.toytowngermany.com/wiki/Resi ... gistration
http://www.expat-karlsruhe.com/arriving ... ation.html

The resident registration process is known as Anmeldung

To do this "Anmeldung" we must both go in person to the local "Einwohnermeldeamt "
The form I believe we need is called "Anmeldeformular"

If I have missed any thing, please shout up


Thanks,


Stu.

[fysicus]

This link may also be helpful: http://www.duesseldorf.de/buergerinfo/3 ... eu03.shtml
Surely similar information can be found on the website of the city where you are planning to live.
Apparently the fee for an Aufenthaltskarte für Familienangehörige von EU-Ausländern is 28.80 euro, and you need to apply for it in person.

[ukforever]

From reading yesterday. If you get your wife a "right of residence as family member of an EU citizen" residence card in Germany, then you wont need an EEA Family Permit. It seems UKBA now accept German and Estonian resident cards as a visa. Pity they dont see the Swedish issued card in the same light......

where did u read that??can u please send us the link..!!thanks.

[Graham Weifang]

Hello all,

My name is Stuart, originally from Skelmersdale, just outside Liverpool, England.
I am a British citizen and UK passport holder, now living in Harbin, China.

I met my Chinese wife, several years ago, and we married last summer here in China.
I have lived in China for around 4 years, and we still live in China to this day.


I have been offered a job in Germany, which will last 6 months.
We plan to use this employment, as "exercising my treaty rights" with the Surinder Singh ruling, where I the EEA national will work and live in another EU country, (Germany) but not my home country (UK)

We plan to remain in Germany and set up a rented apartment, mobile phone, bank account etc in my/our names.
Then apply to the rathause for registration of our living at our rented German apartment.

During our time in Germany, where I will be "exercising my treaty rights", should I (we) pursue the family permit from a UK consulate in Germany, or simply when the time is right, just arrive on the door steps of the UKBA at The Port of Calais?

We would have overwhelming historic proof, and ample documentation of a sustained durable marriage, proof of exercising treaty rights, by way of payslips, contract for rented apartment, and ask them to issue my wife with their A1 passport stamp?

From what I have read here (thanks to everyone) that it doesn't really matter too much either way, the family permit, or directly for the A1 stamp.

Next, assuming all runs well at The Port of Calais, we should be ferry bound for UK.

Stuart.

.
Looks like you have all the requirements.

1/ Married
2/ Job offer in Germany
3/ Plan to rent an apartment - register residence.
4/ Residence card & family permit planned for.

I don't know much about the "1A" stamp at the port sorry.

Gra.

[Graham Weifang]

From reading yesterday. If you get your wife a "right of residence as family member of an EU citizen" residence card in Germany, then you wont need an EEA Family Permit. It seems UKBA now accept German and Estonian resident cards as a visa. Pity they dont see the Swedish issued card in the same light......

.
Hello Roger,

Can you please show me the UKBA website page please.


Gra.

[infors]

Don't know if I can be any help but I've been living in Germany for a while now with a non-EU wife and know the system (ish).

We're about to apply for an EEA Family Permit for the first time (before we were married she went for UK visit visas). All the links provided are great, I thought I'd just clarify:

Registration
Everyone living in Germany has to be registered with their local registration office (Einwohnermeldeamt). You need to do this shortly after arriving (Anmelden), when you move (Ummelden) and de-register when you leave (Abmelden).

Everyone, EU or non-EU must do this and you'll need to take a passport, proof you're allowed to live in the country and some documents to prove your residence (apartment contract etc.).

When you do this they give you a certificate that you do indeed live at the address you've registered and that you're registered with them. We submitted this before with visit visa applications and intend to submit it for the EEA FP application as extra proof of our residence and proof (along with work contract etc.) that I'm exercising my treaty rights.

Residence Permit/Visa
Non-EU citizens are also required to have permission (for example, through marriage) to live in Germany. I'm not sure of the application process for this, but I believe it's also done through the Einwohnermeldeamt. I can look into it if you need help (my wife has gone through it). What you end up with is a residency card, the Aufenthaltstitel - a credit card type ID card that is permission to stay in Germany. We also intend to submit this with our EEA FP application to prove that she has residence and right to residence in Germany.

I hope this helps a little, if you've got more specific questions then do let me know - the intricacies of visa applications are still tough for me but after 8 years here I know quite a bit about the bureaucracy required for living in Germany! Also, if it would help, I can let you know what we submit and how our EEA FP application goes.[/b]

[ukforever]

Don't know if I can be any help but I've been living in Germany for a while now with a non-EU wife and know the system (ish).

We're about to apply for an EEA Family Permit for the first time (before we were married she went for UK visit visas). All the links provided are great, I thought I'd just clarify:

Registration
Everyone living in Germany has to be registered with their local registration office (Einwohnermeldeamt). You need to do this shortly after arriving (Anmelden), when you move (Ummelden) and de-register when you leave (Abmelden).

Everyone, EU or non-EU must do this and you'll need to take a passport, proof you're allowed to live in the country and some documents to prove your residence (apartment contract etc.).

When you do this they give you a certificate that you do indeed live at the address you've registered and that you're registered with them. We submitted this before with visit visa applications and intend to submit it for the EEA FP application as extra proof of our residence and proof (along with work contract etc.) that I'm exercising my treaty rights.

Residence Permit/Visa
Non-EU citizens are also required to have permission (for example, through marriage) to live in Germany. I'm not sure of the application process for this, but I believe it's also done through the Einwohnermeldeamt. I can look into it if you need help (my wife has gone through it). What you end up with is a residency card, the Aufenthaltstitel - a credit card type ID card that is permission to stay in Germany. We also intend to submit this with our EEA FP application to prove that she has residence and right to residence in Germany.

I hope this helps a little, if you've got more specific questions then do let me know - the intricacies of visa applications are still tough for me but after 8 years here I know quite a bit about the bureaucracy required for living in Germany! Also, if it would help, I can let you know what we submit and how our EEA FP application goes.[/b]

hi,can u let us know please,what u submitted for your wife's residence card..what was the paperwork required from u and her and how long it took for her to get the residence card and it would help if u explain how the process went and how was it really as an experience.

someone here in this forum not long ago explained his story regarding his wife getting the residence card in just 6 weeks after he submitted their application just after he started work in Germany and did not even need a family permit,he just came to the uk through calais and got a 1A stamp in his wife's passport...just 2 months worth of payslips.

it would be nice from u to share your experience it might be helping some couples here who wants to go this route..thanks.