Brit considering surinder singh type options

[Tarpon]

Background; I am British, with an African wife. I have the right to live in UK. Married and living together for over a decade out of UK, we have 4 British passport holding kids.

I was hoping to get her immigration situation sorted out just in case something happens to me, so she can live in UK with the kids hassle free. Vinny pointed out the EEA route as an alternative, and I am seriously considering it as my best option.

If I get a job in Europe, and get the non-EEA family permit then go to UK and get a 5 year permit for my wife (none of which I have started doing yet), then my questions are

1. I believe (from the sticky this forum) I can go to UK, pay 300 quid for a 1 day processing and get her the 5 year stamp (if its not available yet, it should be by the time I get to that stage)
2. What happens if I leave UK before the 5 years is up?
3. Can I leave my wife in UK for the 5 years, while I work overseas in Europe or elsewhere. (I have the right to live and work in UK, do I actually have to do so)
4 Will she, after 5 years, qualify for permanent residence if I am out of UK for some of the time she's been in UK - for example if I return to UK at the end of the 5 years when she is going for permanent residence.
5 I believe she has to be in UK for 6months + 1 day (i.e. greater than 6 months) per year. She could come and visit for extended holidays and I could come to UK to visit. Is this accurate? However, if it is accurate, does her (6months + 1 day) count as a full year for residency, or does it count as 6 months?
6 Importantly, what if the 5 year permit expires and she doesn't meet the requirements for permanent residence, does she apply for another 5 years or what happens?

Thanks for any advice.
I know this is a bit odd - wanting to work outside UK while my wife is in UK - but its a lot better financially. I am working on setting up financial security for the family as well as immigration security for them.

[Jambo]

I hope you realise that your wife needs to move with you to another EEA state before both of you return to the UK. Not an easy move if there are children involved.

As for your questions:

1. There is no £300 service. This was scrapped as soon as the HO realised it is not allowed by EEA regulation.
2. You are allowed to be absent upto 6 months a year. If you move permanently out of the UK, your wife loses the right to live in the UK
3. As long as you are absent less than 6 months a year
4. See 3.
5. This is correct. The 6 months absence are per residence year. She can be 6 months (+1) in the UK and 6 months (-1) abroad and this will count as 1 year. She can repeat that for every year in the 5 years. Same rule apply to you.
6. Yes. She can apply for another 5 years.

[Tarpon]

Thanks for the response Jambo.

Yes, I do understand that my wife would have to live with me in the EEA country before moving to UK. And yes, its not simple with kids. But I am a qualified teacher, and have worked abroad for over a decade so I am looking at getting a job in an EEA country for a couple of years.

Because I'd be moving my kids to a new school in EEA I need to be there for a while (their educational continuity), and as a teacher it requires a commitment to the job of at least a whole school year, preferably more (it would be wrong to leave mid year and mess up the kids I teach just to solve my immigration situation).

Thats why I am trying to find out if I can complete a working contract in an EEA country while my wife lives in UK and we regular visits to keep close to the kids.

If its possible to set up, she could visit us for 6 months (-1) and as a teacher I get shed loads of holiday when I could visit her in UK - the family would be together for about 8 months of the year even though were based in different countries....
Shame it doesn't look like I can do it easily.

Getting desperate here, but would this work;

1. go to EEA together.
2. get 5 year permit for my wife.
3. I leave UK but she stays with the 2 youngest kids.
4. she applies for 'Zambrano' wrt the 2 kids (I am out of UK, cant look after em) so she doesn't get removed - this allows her to stay in UK, right?
5 before the 5 years ends, I return to UK. (reapply for 5 year permit if needed?)
6 she applies for permanent residence having been in UK for 5 years, and I am there at this stage.

And, if it could work, can a 'Zambrano' leave UK for 6 months (-1) or would she be blocked from re-entry?

Or, alternative; does the same (if I leave UK for over 6 months then she loses right of residence) apply to a 'financial self sufficient' type application?

[Plum70]

Tarpon, you will need to be deemed resident and exercising treaty rights (self/employment, studying, self-sufficient, job seeking e.t.c.) in the UK for over 6 months per year for your wife to have the right to reside with you in the UK.

Simply hopping in and out neither qualifies as residence nor exercising treaty rights UNLESS the EU school/organisation you plan to work for pays your salary in a UK bank account, you pay UK taxes and you reside in the UK for 6 months +1 each year.

Otherwise a plan (B) might be you all residing in the EEA country where you wish to take up employment, your wife acquiring PR there (after 5 years) and perhaps acquiring that member state's nationality?

[Jambo]

Plum,

The OP is British planning to do a Singh so there is no need to exercise treaty rights once back in UK. He is however required to reside in the UK (for at least 6 months a year) for his wife to enjoy the rights under the directive.

[Tarpon]

Oh, I see....

So if I work in an EEA country (for say a year or more, with my wife present as I work on a visa then with a FP) and return to UK under a 'Surinder Singh' to bring my non-EEA wife into UK, I dont need to work or claim self sufficient in order for us to stay.
BUT what about in 5 years when going for PR? will I have to at that point show I have been working or self sufficient for the 5 years in UK? Or am I in the clear as long as I have say a tenancy agreement and some utility & council tax bills in my/our name?


Thanks for putting me right, I was seriously mixed up with this...

[vinny]

See also Eind.

[Plum70]

Plum,

The OP is British planning to do a Singh so there is no need to exercise treaty rights once back in UK.

This I did not know and am slightly surprised as it seems to give an advantage to British citizens utilising the EU family route over other EU citizens who must exercise treaty rights via the same route.

Anyway, you are correct as outlined in related case law and chapter 2 of the UKBA European Caseworker Instructions.

So OP, you do not need to be economically active on bringing your family to the UK having exercised economic treaty rights in another EU member state first.

[Graham Weifang]

See also Eind.

.
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Hi Vinny,

I have read the Eind, but don't fully understand it.

is it a ruling along similar lines to Singh?

Gra.

[vinny]

It's related to Jambo's answer.

[Tarpon]

@ Vinny; My apologies for having two threads with the same post, it was not originally the same line of inquiry, but both lines converged and generated the same response (that I dont need to exercise treaty rights as a Brit returning to UK after EEA work).

I didn't understand the Enid link yet, just back from work so I'll try get through it later after I get back from the dentist (ack).

Edit to insert; I think the main point made in this context is in ruling 1 - 'even where that worker does not carry on any effective and genuine economic activities.'

It seems now that my best course of action is rapidly closing in on the EEA route you (Vinny) suggested. For this I am greatly in your debt, you opened my eyes quite literally. (I applied for a job in Denmark, waiting for interview).

Without restating my objectives, it seems to me that the key point for me now is what exactly would I be required to provide to establish residence in UK. I am thinking about at the end of the 5 year residence, when going for the permanent residence for my wife.
Are there standard documents I need to provide, or is it up to me to be creative in showing residence over the 5 years - utility bills in my name, school reports for the kids, family photos etc.

[ukforever]

@ Vinny; My apologies for having two threads with the same post, it was not originally the same line of inquiry, but both lines converged and generated the same response (that I dont need to exercise treaty rights as a Brit returning to UK after EEA work).

I didn't understand the Enid link yet, just back from work so I'll try get through it later after I get back from the dentist (ack).

Edit to insert; I think the main point made in this context is in ruling 1 - 'even where that worker does not carry on any effective and genuine economic activities.'

It seems now that my best course of action is rapidly closing in on the EEA route you (Vinny) suggested. For this I am greatly in your debt, you opened my eyes quite literally. (I applied for a job in Denmark, waiting for interview).

Without restating my objectives, it seems to me that the key point for me now is what exactly would I be required to provide to establish residence in UK. I am thinking about at the end of the 5 year residence, when going for the permanent residence for my wife.
Are there standard documents I need to provide, or is it up to me to be creative in showing residence over the 5 years - utility bills in my name, school reports for the kids, family photos etc.

the same evidence u will provide when applying for FP or residence card is the same u need to provide for the PR application,which means,the payslips,work contract,proof of residency for both of u that u have been living together in the other state where u exercised your treaty rights , that's all.

[ukforever]

read Q5 in the link below:


http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... 688ac29aec

[Jambo]

@ Vinny; My apologies for having two threads with the same post, it was not originally the same line of inquiry, but both lines converged and generated the same response (that I dont need to exercise treaty rights as a Brit returning to UK after EEA work).

I didn't understand the Enid link yet, just back from work so I'll try get through it later after I get back from the dentist (ack).

Edit to insert; I think the main point made in this context is in ruling 1 - 'even where that worker does not carry on any effective and genuine economic activities.'

It seems now that my best course of action is rapidly closing in on the EEA route you (Vinny) suggested. For this I am greatly in your debt, you opened my eyes quite literally. (I applied for a job in Denmark, waiting for interview).

Without restating my objectives, it seems to me that the key point for me now is what exactly would I be required to provide to establish residence in UK. I am thinking about at the end of the 5 year residence, when going for the permanent residence for my wife.
Are there standard documents I need to provide, or is it up to me to be creative in showing residence over the 5 years - utility bills in my name, school reports for the kids, family photos etc.

You can be creative. There isn't a specific document required to e prove residence (so tenancy agreements, utility bills, council tax bills, GP letters, school letters etc are all fine).

[Tarpon]

Awsome.

Thank you all very much for your patience and guidance.

[Tarpon]

read Q5 in the link below:


http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... 688ac29aec

In that thread, Q2 in the section on permanent residence says

Q2: Do I need to provide bank statements for the 5 years for my EEA4 application?

To apply for PR Confirmation, you need to provide evidence that the EEA national has exercised treaty rights for 5 years and that you reside in the UK for 5 years. The HO just list examples of documents to prove that. Your residence can also be proved by tenancy agreements, utility bills (for example annual council tax), payslips, letter from employer etc. There is no need to prove every single day out of the 5 years. Try to make the application simple (and light!)

This bold section confuses me slightly in regards to the expatiation in the earlier posts of this thread that I don't need to provide evidence of anything (except my employment and family residence in the other EEA state) once back in UK.
Is it that as a Brit I need prove nothing, but if I was a non-Brit EEA national I'd have to exercise treaty rights for the 5 years?
Or is it that my residence alone in UK is 'exercising treaty rights'?

[Jambo]

Is it that as a Brit I need prove nothing, but if I was a non-Brit EEA national I'd have to exercise treaty rights for the 5 years?

Precisely. The FAQ is aimed at non British EEA nationals. The requirements for Brits returning to the UK after working in another member state are different.

[Tarpon]

I see, thanks.
Now I understand why I was getting confused.
I can see clearly now.

Probably my final question for the time being (until I get a job in EEA ) is;
Does this apply also if I want to bring an older relative (mother in law) i.e. would I have to prove anything like ability to support her and/or anything else, or as a Brit doing a Singh am i free as a bird...
(I read that if bringing a distant family member I have to show ability to support, but I don't know if that applies to a returning Brit)

Also, what if the mother in law was to bring her youngest child (about 15 years old)?

Thanks again, (just considering options - it could be cheaper than child care and would let my wife work )