Surinder Singh, different Ireland question re Scottish wife

[kkiko77]

Question for ulanata, sheraz7, and any / all other knowledgeable sources —

I am a national of the United States having lived in London for almost three full years (as of this coming autumn). I am here on a visa that currently looks like it's going to be difficult to renew once autumn rolls around, and also, there are no other visas I can transfer myself on to currently (for example I was rejected from my university Masters course so I can't switch to T4). Therefore, my wife, who is Scottish and says she has no intention of seeing me fail at staying in the country, plans to go to Ireland (the republic), bringing me with her as her spouse; she'll work for three months and then return with me to London after the three months are up, exercising her EU right to bring in a non-EEA spouse (the Surinder Singh route). This type of question may have been asked before and if so I apologise, but I'm pretty sure the main thing I need to know is whether or not there's any paper proof of any kind that she and/or I would need upon either crossing the border in to Ireland or upon crossing the border back in to the UK from Ireland.

We can bring our marriage certificate etc etc but would she also need things like pay slips, pre-written intent to exercise her entitlement to use the Surinder Singh, et cetera? Or would it be more a situation of she and I simply crossing the border one way; her arriving at a job in Ireland and working those three months; and then after the three months, upon reaching the border crossing back in to the UK, simply verbally say "I am exercising my EU right to bring in my non-EEA husband, here's his passport and mine" and that's it?

Lastly, whatever precise way this is done, is there an immediate obligation on the UKBA and/or Home Office's part to issue me a Residency Certificate that they would place inside my passport in place of my current visa, or is there a period where this whole thing circulates through the Home Office's systems and where they ask for my passport to be surrendered to them for a time so that they can glue the residency certificate inside my passport?

Thanks, I know this is a lot; I have a hard time not being long-winded sometimes….

[Jambo]

I suggest you read EEA FAQs - Common Questions - Read before posting - Surinder Singh.

There is no immigration control between the UK and Ireland.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

The key is that she is doing real and effective work in Ireland: http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2011/12 ... -a-worker/

[kkiko77]

Thanks for the replies so far — the SS FAQ is a tad confusing but the part where it says "6 months" rather than 3 concerns me a little bit; however 6 months is by no means a terrible length of time. In terms of the almost-3 years I've already spent in London under my current visa, would I have to spend _an additional_ five years in London/the UK after getting back from Ireland in order to qualify, or are we talking the 3 existing years being valid, plus two more (those two additional years being under the EU rights from the 6 months' Suntunder Singh contribution), to add up to the 5 year total? Basically I'm still confused. Brain. :)

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Breath. Take a walk. Reread. It will all become more familiar. Reread

[kkiko77]

[quote="Directive/2004/38/EC"]Breath. Take a walk. Reread. It will all become more familiar. Reread[/quote]

I'm not quite sure why there's a sense here that all the elements of my question can be easily answered by the FAQ. I did read the whole FAQ and I don't feel they answer what I'm asking. If these things are easily answerable why aren't they able to be answered element-by-element inside this thread? I feel that I am being made to feel stupid for asking this stuff. Similar to the "Let Me Google That For You" thing some people say when they are asked anything. :(

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

All your questions will not be answered by the FAQ. But there is good information there. There are also about 100 other threads about Singh. And the link I sent you.

[Jambo]

You need to appreciate that many questions are repeating and although it might be your first question, it won't be the first time this answer is given. People here are not paid for answering questions so answering similar questions again and again is not on the top of people's list.

As for your questions (some of them are original

* there is no immigration control between the UK and Ireland so you don't announce that you are using Singh. You simply move to Ireland, your wife need to work there, you can apply for a residence card (EU4Fam I believe. I'm not very familiar with Irish immigration), and after several months (it's not defined by the regulations. The more the better), you can return to the UK and apply for a UK Residence Card using form EEA2. It can take up to 6 months until this is issued. If you wish you can apply (optional) for a EEA Family Permit from Ireland before moving back. This will have no affect on your status once back but having it will reassure you that you got the right documents for future applications.

* after 5 years of residence in the UK (doesn't matter when the Residence Card was issued), you will obtain PR and can apply for British citizenship. You can't use yor time before the move to Ireland so doing the Singh will reset your time for settlement in the UK.

[wiggsy]

the six months is not fixed... but it is an example.. people have posted about getting back in a matter of 8 weeks etc...

But if you have a visa at the moment, do you have kids? It might be worth looking into an Article 8 claim...

-

Also, I suggest checking out the Ireland forum too, "Bridged from Ireland" has written ALOT of helpful posts

[Ayyubi72]

But if you have a visa at the moment, do you have kids? It might be worth looking into an Article 8 claim...

Wow, human rights claim? What a wonderful idea (not). Imagine how the human rights claim will progress.

"I am a US citizen. If I return to US to get spouse visa I will face terrible harships, because US is such a poor country and almost everyone has nothing to eat. A civil war has broken out too. I cannot even get to British embassy because I fear getting kidnapped. There is a possiblity that FBI might impound my passport and put me in prison."

Why give totally utter rubbish misleading advice, when others are guiding the OP in right direction?

Some people think that human rights claim is like a walk in the park.

Human rights claim, ha.


By the way, has anyone got the number of National Human Rights Claim Line? I have heard that they deal with claims on no-win no-fee basis.

Can someone please post the link to Human Rights Claim form?

(Mod Edit: This is a forum for discussion. The poster had some questions, other have contributed. You've chosen to be unhelpful. If you wish to continue, then you would need to improve your attitude).

[kkiko77]

The six months is not fixed... but it is an example.. people have posted about getting back in a matter of 8 weeks etc... But if you have a visa at the moment, do you have kids? It might be worth looking into an Article 8 claim... Also, I suggest checking out the Ireland forum too, "Bridged from Ireland" has written A LOT of helpful posts :)

* Wiggsy, I'm going to ignore the reply of Ayyubi72 to your message that IMO mocks your mention of an Article 8 claim to an unreasonably extreme degree. That's not because I think you have a point about the Article 8 claim -- you don't, in my case; not only do I not-have kids but also, I've historically had a substantial chunk of monetary wealth and a substantial lifestyle comfort that legitimately frames me as firmly 'middle class' or perhaps even petty-bourgie; I've only most recently started to run in to trouble with that -- but rather because I don't really give a rats mule about the playground antics currently going on in the UK press over the supposedly 'wide abuse' of Article 8 claims (or of the NHS, huge abuse because of that one black lady from Africa who came over and had her baby and then went home, or, of the enormous 0.8% disability-benefit fraud total, or, or, or). I didn't make this thread so that some could use it as a platform for a slide in to dearly beloved and/or xenophobic attacks. We have plenty of that already, thanks mostly to the slide to the hard-right initiated by Maggie Maggie Maggie and continuing under the ConDems.

* It seems Jambo is saying that I would need an IRELAND EU4 Family residence card that I would obtain inside Ireland and use during the time I am still in Ireland alongside my wife. It amazes me that somehow such a residence card would be issued to me by the Irish authorities with enough speed for me to be able to use it (i.e. in under a few weeks' time). The Republic's authorities are just as bureaucratic as any other, so I really can't realistically see how I would be able to physically possess any actual identification card of Irish administrative origin within Ireland during 3 to 6 months (but probably no longer) inside Ireland before returning to the UK. I'm not really asking specifically about Ireland here but rather about the mere concept of remotely expecting that any government would move faster than molasses on matters like these. And presumably, if I can't evidence that I've had the Ireland residence card for the entire time that my wife has been working (with me alongside her) in Ireland, but rather that I've only had it for part of that time because the Irish administration was slow, then logically it would seem that would count against me in the grand scheme of this stuff.

* It deeply disappoints me to hear that the 5 years start at the start of the Singh route but it doesn't surprise me. Actually, the prospect of throwing away the 3 years I've already spent here (those years are basically the only reason I've lost all my money!), is a major reason why I'm looking in to two options that are comparatively better for my situation, one being a Spouse Visa by reason of physical disability exemption from the £18,600 requirement, and the other being a possible switch to a T4 visa if any of the universities I'm currently applying to for my Master's degree, decide to accept me. :(

[Jambo]

I didn't say you need a Residence Card in Ireland to prove residence. The FAQ also doesn't say that (Q2). It is useful to have but you can prove residence by other means also (tenancy agreement, utility bills etc).

Tier-4 doesn't lead to ILR after 5 years. Only after 10 years. With spouse visa, I don't believe you could count the 3 years for settlement under the new rules.

[kkiko77]

I didn't say you need a Residence Card in Ireland to prove residence. The FAQ also doesn't say that (Q2). It is useful to have but you can prove residence by other means also (tenancy agreement, utility bills etc). Tier-4 doesn't lead to ILR after 5 years. Only after 10 years. With spouse visa, I don't believe you could count the 3 years for settlement under the new rules.

I'm not planning on using Tier 4 as a means to further my ILR; I'm aware that Tier 4 "stops the clock" because it doesn't count towards ILR. However, during my university time, which would be at least a year, I would be hoping to gain enough new funds in to my film to enable me to jump back on to Tier 1 and complete the £200K my business needs to show it has invested in itself. A sort-of long shot, given no outside funding came in from 2011 through 2013 and my own money to self-fund it is now gone and according to my accountant the amount evidenced as having been spent in to the business is 'only' (ha!) about £90,000 -- meaning I've still got £110,000 needing to come in, and I sure as hell can't get £110K in between now and this October. Basically, switching to a T4 would be a delaying tactic on my part (although not to the level of fraud; I really and genuinely do want to get a full Masters degree in film at a London university), and frankly if it turns out I can do the Spouse visa under disability provisions instead of either switching visas or partaking in the Surinder Singh route (I'm still in talks with my emigration attorney about spouse visa qualifications in my and her case-- she has a collection of diffuse neurological symptoms resembling MS in some ways although doctors aren't sure what's up, and meanwhile, I have cerebral palsy), it would _probably_ be the more preferable of the two options. Otherwise it could possibly emerge that I would enter a crazy game of switching from T1E over to T4 and then either back to T1 or figuring out some crazily-desperate route of someone somehow hiring me of their own accord and under their own power for T2 which is basically not going to be happening, especially not in this economy.

[Ayyubi72]

You can research the whole immigration laws and might still end up with azero.

If you have liquid cash, and if you wife does not work, and you can spare £ 64500 to sit in a savings account for minimum six months, then you can easily get spouse visa. If you had taken right steps at the right time, you would had spouse visa already.

There is no general disability provisions as such for spouse visa. Only people who get certain specific benefits qualify.

I think, that's that. Chao.

[kkiko77]

If you have liquid cash, and if you wife does not work, and you can spare £ 64500 to sit in a savings account for minimum six months, then you can easily get spouse visa.

I did say that I _had_ several hundred thousand quid when I started all this, yes, but that's past tense and now I don't have any of it any more at all, much less anywhere near £64,500.

If you had taken right steps at the right time, you would had spouse visa already.

That's hard to believe, given my research and the knowledge of my emigration attorney. Please explain what these 'right steps' would have been at what 'right time'. It's very easy to say these things flippantly, but since you seem to know exactly what it is I should have done that I did not do, I welcome you to tell me exactly what that would have been.

I came in to this country on T1E because it was the only workable visa option for me, and I've had an emigration attorney I've met with on a regular basis since the activation of my visa in 2010.

There is no general disability provisions as such for spouse visa. Only people who get certain specific benefits qualify.

I am very aware of that, and I never said 'general' disability provisions; I'm aware the £18,600 exception route is tricky, and I know my wife would need to be on very specific benefits, and in fact she is on at least one (actually, two, coming up) of those exact benefits. I ask these things having already looked in to them at least a little bit.

[Ayyubi72]

When did you marry?

[kkiko77]

When did you marry?

Nearly a year ago.

[Amber]

If your spouse is receiving a qualifying benefit, then you will be exempt from the financial requirement, rather you just have to be able to adequately maintain and accommodate. The route to settlement as a spouse is still 5 years. Don't take what Ayyubi takes seriously, no one else does. If your spouse application fails in finance alone, your application will be stayed (on hold) due to a recent high court decision.

[Ayyubi72]

I (wrongly) assumed that you married pre july 2012.

As you are already aware, now the best route seems to be SS.

[Ayyubi72]

If your wife is on qualifying benefits, then spouse visa option is still open.

Or

SS option, if you want to avoid paying application fees, or do not meet other requirements of spouse visa. (You do not need to meet £18600 requirement because your wife in on qualifying benefits)

With your wife being on qualifying benefits, and you having an income too plus some saving, it should not be a problem getting spouse visa from within UK.

[kkiko77]

If your spouse is receiving a qualifying benefit, then you will be exempt from the financial requirement, rather you just have to be able to adequately maintain and accommodate. The route to settlement as a spouse is still 5 years. Don't take what Ayyubi takes seriously, no one else does. If your spouse application fails in finance alone, your application will be stayed (on hold) due to a recent high court decision.

My wife is not yet on one of the qualifying benefits, but has been fighting like mad for like a year to get on DLA which, because of her disabilities, all the various Jobcentres always seem to ask her why she's not already on it (as if SHE would know when she's the one who keeps getting rejected by _their_ people! ... but nevermind). The DWP keeps rejecting her but now that she has Council support it might just be that she'll get on it just in time, or if PIP has already totally supplanted DLA by then, perhaps PIP instead.

[Amber]

If she's appealing a DLA decision she'll be awarded DLA though, for new claimants and under 65 it is PIP now. Appeals are taking around 9 months to get to tribunal. Make sure she attends the tribunal, paper hearings usually fail. Get supporting evidence from drs and other health workers/carers. Keep a diary of how the day to day life is affected and make sure she takes someone for support.

[wiggsy]

But if you have a visa at the moment, do you have kids? It might be worth looking into an Article 8 claim...

Wow, human rights claim? What a wonderful idea (not). Imagine how the human rights claim will progress.

....

Human rights claim, ha.

KEY PART: DO YOU HAVE KIDS!... - Zambrano / Article 8 Guidance CLEARLY STATE THAT CHILDREN CANNOT BE EXPECTED TO LEAVE THE EEA... The USA is not part of the EEA.

So thats for that post

@kkiko...

Money does not matter when it comes to human rights... whether your rich, or poor, every one has the same basic human right to a family life. This is where the Singh ruling comes from.

If your going to Ireland though, I suggest checking out the Ireland forum

If you've looked into the HR application then thats all good... but sometimes its worth applying before hand, but if you have no kids, then I doubt it would help at all (our Art 8 claims failed despite having kids prior to Zambrano ruling).

[wiggsy]

1) Wiggsy, I'm going to ignore the reply of Ayyubi72 to your message that IMO mocks your mention of an Article 8 claim to an unreasonably extreme degree. That's not because I think you have a point about the Article 8 claim -- you don't, in my case; not only do I not-have kids but also, I've historically had a substantial chunk of monetary wealth and a substantial lifestyle comfort that legitimately frames me as firmly 'middle class' or perhaps even petty-bourgie; I've only most recently started to run in to trouble with that -- but rather because I don't really give a rats mule about the playground antics currently going on in the UK press over the supposedly 'wide abuse' of Article 8 claims (or of the NHS, huge abuse because of that one black lady from Africa who came over and had her baby and then went home, or, of the enormous 0.8% disability-benefit fraud total, or, or, or). I didn't make this thread so that some could use it as a platform for a slide in to dearly beloved and/or xenophobic attacks. We have plenty of that already, thanks mostly to the slide to the hard-right initiated by Maggie Maggie Maggie and continuing under the ConDems.

2) It seems Jambo is saying that I would need an IRELAND EU4 Family residence card that I would obtain inside Ireland and use during the time I am still in Ireland alongside my wife. It amazes me that somehow such a residence card would be issued to me by the Irish authorities with enough speed for me to be able to use it (i.e. in under a few weeks' time). The Republic's authorities are just as bureaucratic as any other, so I really can't realistically see how I would be able to physically possess any actual identification card of Irish administrative origin within Ireland during 3 to 6 months (but probably no longer) inside Ireland before returning to the UK. I'm not really asking specifically about Ireland here but rather about the mere concept of remotely expecting that any government would move faster than molasses on matters like these. And presumably, if I can't evidence that I've had the Ireland residence card for the entire time that my wife has been working (with me alongside her) in Ireland, but rather that I've only had it for part of that time because the Irish administration was slow, then logically it would seem that would count against me in the grand scheme of this stuff.

3) It deeply disappoints me to hear that the 5 years start at the start of the Singh route but it doesn't surprise me. Actually, the prospect of throwing away the 3 years I've already spent here (those years are basically the only reason I've lost all my money!), is a major reason why I'm looking in to two options that are comparatively better for my situation, one being a Spouse Visa by reason of physical disability exemption from the £18,600 requirement, and the other being a possible switch to a T4 visa if any of the universities I'm currently applying to for my Master's degree, decide to accept me.

1) article 8 is just an alternative, you honestly would be better on EEA regs at present.

2) the EU4 stamp is done there and then at the garda station from what I read. the actual residence permit takes close to six months (you enter on a class c short stay single entry visa [unless your a non-visa national - in which case dont need a visa, just your marriage cert etc])

3) accept the loss, five years to PR will fly past so fast. once your back here, regardless of if your wife works or not, you have EEA rights. this means right to go to any university for the same cost as a uk national etc, same fundings and everything...

[kkiko77]

If your spouse is receiving a qualifying benefit, then you will be exempt from the financial requirement, rather you just have to be able to adequately maintain and accommodate. The route to settlement as a spouse is still 5 years. Don't take what Ayyubi takes seriously, no one else does. If your spouse application fails in finance alone, your application will be stayed (on hold) due to a recent high court decision.

If even marginally possible-- and I don't see why it wouldn't be at least marginally possible-- I want to make sure the time I've already spent on T1E "counts". I want to ensure my current almost-three years in the UK under Tier 1 Entrepreneur doesn't end up as having been for nothing, because if that becomes the case, then I will have spent time founding and maintaining a business that drained me of all my money, for no significant end result as far as the Home Office is concerned -- and that's not really acceptable to me considering the amount I have spent is already in the upper-tens-of-thousands GBP.

If my wife and I go the spousal-visa route, does that route then ignore the three years I've already had the T1E???? Hashtag #ThatWouldDefinitelySuck