EVIDENCE OF RESIDENCE

[OLUMUYIWA]

Hello good people of this forum , I have 2 questions -

1. I applied for EUFAM4 on June 24th, and today 27th July , INIS returned my documents back to me , with a letter asking me to provide-
- More evidence of EU spouse's economic activity
- Evidence of residence in Ireland.
There was nothing in the letter saying I should proceed to Garda to apply for temporary stamp 4 or GNIB card. My question is , do they normally send the letter for temporary stamp 4 separately after they have returned documents or does such letter normally come with original documents?

2. Regarding evidence of residence , me and my spouse are currently living rent-free with a friend in a council supported flat and so she is not able to register us with PRTB , neither can she approach The council/landlord to provide her a confirmation letter that we are residing with her , because this will basically put her in trouble.
But in my previous application , I did provide her tenancy agreement plus a covering letter from our host explaining that we are living with her as rent-free as a favour , but obviously INIS disregarded this.
So my question is what other ways can I prove to INIS that we are resident within Ireland apart from providing PRTB letter and Landlord's letter ? In the EU1explanatory leaflet , it says[b] "Other evidence of residence may be considered if deemed satisfactory."[/b] But what other evidences will be satisfactory enough ?

I will be glad if anyone can advise, particularly people with first hand experience in similar situation.

Cheers.

[IntegratedMigrant]

Hello good people of this forum , I have 2 questions -

1. I applied for EUFAM4 on June 24th, and today 27th July , INIS returned my documents back to me , with a letter asking me to provide-
- More evidence of EU spouse's economic activity
- Evidence of residence in Ireland.
There was nothing in the letter saying I should proceed to Garda to apply for temporary stamp 4 or GNIB card. My question is , do they normally send the letter for temporary stamp 4 separately after they have returned documents or does such letter normally come with original documents?

I think they will only issue you a Temporary Stamp 4 when they are satisfied that you have all the required documentation which you clearly dont have for now. A Temporary Stamp 4 may be issued to you after you return the omitted documents

[OLUMUYIWA]

Surely they cant be that rigid. Not everyone in Ireland must be a paying tenant. It will be ridiculous if they are not flexible considering different people have different situations.

[IntegratedMigrant]

Surely they cant be that rigid. Not everyone in Ireland must be a paying tenant. It will be ridiculous if they are not flexible considering different people have different situations.

Welcome to Ireland. Its their way or the high way. If it wasnt for the EU Laws, Ireland will be the worst place for immigrants to reside.
Sad the EU Law does not specifically indicate what documents that are required in your case and thats where the INIS comes in

[jeupsy]

IntegratedMigrant is correct, if they were happy that you had provide all the documents, they would have issued the Stamp 4. Typically, even if one document is missing (PTRB letter) but the rest looks fine, they do issue the Stamp 4 anyway and ask you to send it asap. So it looks like they are not very comfortable with your application.

You can try to email them to explain the situation and ask them what type of document they would be looking for in your case. But realistically if their answer is correct in saying that there was not enough evidence of economic activity, I don't think you could blame them for wanting more documentation.

What did you provide in terms of of proof of economic activity?

[IntegratedMigrant]

2. Regarding evidence of residence , me and my spouse are currently living rent-free with a friend in a council supported flat and so she is not able to register us with PRTB , neither can she approach The council/landlord to provide her a confirmation letter that we are residing with her , because this will basically put her in trouble.
But in my previous application , I did provide her tenancy agreement plus a covering letter from our host explaining that we are living with her as rent-free as a favour , but obviously INIS disregarded this.
So my question is what other ways can I prove to INIS that we are resident within Ireland apart from providing PRTB letter and Landlord's letter ? In the EU1explanatory leaflet , it says "Other evidence of residence may be considered if deemed satisfactory." But what other evidences will be satisfactory enough ?

You have provided a satisfactory evidence of residence but INIS simply dont want to accept that. There is no other way as far as I can see but to rent a flat and register with PRTB

[OLUMUYIWA]

Well, I have emailed them this afternoon , and I will see what they say.

Do they usually send the stamp 4 letter afterwards, even when they are still requesting more docs?
Someone once posted on this forum it happened to him , I cant remember who again.

Regarding Evidence of economic treaty rights , I have no problems there . At the time I sent off the application , my wife has just barely registered as self employed because we only just moved to Ireland a few weeks previous.
So all that I included was letter of registration as self employed , bank statement for about 2 weeks , copy of receipts to her customers . I knew I would have to send futher evidence at some point.

But at the moment , I can provide -

1. Bank statement for the last one month showing money going into the account
2- bank deposit slips
3. more receipts issued to customers
4. copy of weekly adverts on internet
5. receipt from Revenue showing first instalmental payment towards 2013 prelimnary tax
6. An contract letter of employment . My wife has just had an offer of employment this week , so we can also provide that in addition to 1-5 above.

So it is the Evidence of residence I am actually worried about.
By the way , does anyone know how long it normally take for PRTB to get back to you with a confirmation letter after they have received your application from Landlord ??

[jeupsy]

I think if they had wanted to issue the Stamp 4, they would have included this in the communication they just send back to you. Have they assigned an application number or you or simply refused your application (just beware of this as if they haven't assigned an application number you will probably have to submit everything again and not only the additional documents).

I think they were not very confident as in what you submitted originally both the evidence of residence and economic activity in the state were somehow lacking in details.

It looks like you are now much stronger in terms of showing evidence of economic activity so they might be more flexible about the rest - lets see what they reply to your email.

Also, in terms of PTRB letters, after the landlord did the registration online it only took a few days for me to get them (it probably is an automated process). The problem is that some landlords (and especially agents) are really slow or don't want to do it and it is difficult to force then to.

From other people's experience though, if everything else but the PRTB letter is there - they do issue the Stamp 4 anyway and ask you to send the letter as soon as you have it.

All the best!

[dalebutt]

I suspect if the INIS have problem with your wife's economic activity, you will not be receiving the temporary stamp 4, it is from your wife's economic activities that you derive your own rights, if that has not been fully established, I would not expect them to issue the temporary stamp 4. That is the most important document of your application, the PTRB letter is even secondary

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

In reality, the documents required to obtain residence documentation are comprehensively specified in directive 2004/38/ec.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 123:en:PDF

What is important in your case is evidence that EU national is indeed a self-employed person.

[OLUMUYIWA]

Thanks EUDirective for that link.

I have no problem satisfying the requirement for economic treaty rights as my wife has been self employed for more than 2 months since we arrived, plus she has also just secured a part time employment as a nurse (24hrs a week). I hope the 24 hrs a week will not be considered insignificant.

My problem is how to fulfill the evidence of residence requirements considering our situation above.

Any suggestion is much appreciated.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

24 hours per week is not insignificant employment. It can be less burdensome to show status as an employee than a self-employed person. For an employee, all that is required is a letter of engagement from an employer or payslips.

Ireland likes to make it difficult for applicants by imposing requirements on proof of address, which are not mentioned in the directive.

In your case, first demonstrate that the EU national is working, that you are married and make a statement as to the circumstances of your accommodation.

[Monifé]

Are you receiving bills in your name (or your spouse's name or joint names) to your residence? Mobile phone bills etc or even bank statements, that is all considered proof of residence.

[Brigid from Ireland]

'More evidence of spouse economic activity' is solved if you can show payslips for working as an employee, such as a nursing job. So that part is fine.

That leaves evidence of residence. It can cause problems for a council tenant if they allow you to reside in their council house (including a rent increase) and in any case you will be unable to get proof other than a letter from the council tenant, which is unlikely to be accepted.

They want PTRB registration, as they consider that proof of residence. It is not required, so there is no particular need to rent accommodation as this is an expense for you.

If you want to have fun with the official, you can tell them that your culture is a nomadic one and you are a Traveller/gypsy. Explain that your spouse attends work (payslips are proof) and that presenting oneself for work is proof that one resides in Ireland. (The mention that you are a Traveller/gypsy opens the possibility that if they ask for other proof of residence you may make a complaint under Equal Status Acts 2000 and 2004. No state official wants to deal with that type of complaint for a variety of reasons, so if the person dealing with your claim is smart they will accept the fact that your spouse works as proof that your spouse is residing in Ireland). It is perfectly legal in Ireland to reside somewhere other than a house/apartment by choosing a nomadic lifestyle, so there is no need to rent property or register with the PTRB. I am half joking about the nomadic lifestyle, but not really - did you ever wonder why they ask for proof of residence and not proof of owning or renting accommodation?

You can add other stuff, such as bank account details showing that you withdraw money in Ireland, and receipts for purchase of any item showing date of purchase and location. You can join a library and take out books regularly - again this shows you are in Ireland.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Interesting angle about the gypsies, but in reality, the directive simply calls for evidence of being a worker - that's it.

[OLUMUYIWA]

Thank you all for your contributions.

Here is an update -

I emailed them about mys situation and i told them i am unable to provide a PRTB registration because of my situation above. I listed a few documents such as bills and correspondences addressed to me and my wife , and they emailed me back to say those documents are good enough as evidence of residence. In fact they asked me tp print out that confirmation email and include it with the documents i listed in my email when i post it to them . I posted it to them on tuesday last week , and i am just waiting for a response.

Does anyone know how long it might take to get a stamp 4 letter from them in this kind of situation ? I am wondering if anyone has had an experience with INIS before where they requested more documents as in my case , and after the documents have been sent to them , how long did it take INIS to send a letter directing you to proceed to your local Garda station to get a temporary stamp 4 ?? Will i have to wait for another six weeks or will they just issue the stamp 4 letter once they recieve the further evidence they requested ??

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

I emailed them about mys situation and i told them i am unable to provide a PRTB registration because of my situation above. I listed a few documents such as bills and correspondences addressed to me and my wife , and they emailed me back to say those documents are good enough as evidence of residence. In fact they asked me tp print out that confirmation email and include it with the documents i listed in my email when i post it to them . I posted it to them on tuesday last week , and i am just waiting for a response.

It's good that there seems to be a bit of common sense employed.

[El shaddai]

They use to respond every four weeks and will be either requesting for more documents or send you a letter for the stamp 4.