Tier 1 Entrepreneur refusal: very tricky refusal

[rizwan567]

Dear forum members

I will appreciate, if you can give your valuable feedback on below refusal of an entrepreneur case based on third party funding from abroad.
----------------------------------------------------
Background:
---------------------------------------------------
1. Third party is from overseas and Applicant is from UK
2. Third party signed the declaration and took it to the lawyer, the lawyer attested the declaration confirming the signature of third party is valid.
3. Then the documents (bank letter, legal letter and declaration) are posted to UK, applicant signed the third party declaration after receiving them in UK. So basically legal letter is only confirming the signature of third party and not the applicant. As applicant has not signed the third party declaration at that point.

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The exact wording of refusal is:
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You have stated that you have funding of 50k being made available to your business by a third party Mr. Shah. As evidence of this you have submitted a bank letter, declaration and legal letter.

The legal letter confirms the name of your third party Mr. Shah on the declaration. However, the legal letter does not confirm applicant's name on the declaration as required under para 41.

---------------------------------------------------------------

So basically UKBA is objecting that why the lawyer has not written that the applicant has also signed in front of him. Which was not possible as applicant was in the UK and lawyer is in Pakistan.

Questions/Comments:

1. I am quite sure that refusal is not right. If it is right, then what could have an applicant done to resolve the issue and avoid this refusal?

2. If the refusal is right then it also means no third party funding from overseas is possible until applicant flies to sign the declaration in front of third party lawyer! which is quite unusual.

3. I have seen many cases on this forum where applicant's got third party funding arranged and they got the visas without having to fly and sign the third party declaration.

4. Please share your view and please give your kind opinion that what should be basis and grounds of this appeal.

[MNaveedonline]

Dear forum members

I will appreciate, if you can give your valuable feedback on below refusal of an entrepreneur case based on third party funding from abroad.
----------------------------------------------------
Background:
---------------------------------------------------
1. Third party is from overseas and Applicant is from UK
2. Third party signed the declaration and took it to the lawyer, the lawyer attested the declaration confirming the signature of third party is valid.
3. Then the documents (bank letter, legal letter and declaration) are posted to UK, applicant signed the third party declaration after receiving them in UK. So basically legal letter is only confirming the signature of third party and not the applicant. As applicant has not signed the third party declaration at that point.

------------------------------------------------------
The exact wording of refusal is:
-----------------------------------------------------
You have stated that you have funding of 50k being made available to your business by a third party Mr. Shah. As evidence of this you have submitted a bank letter, declaration and legal letter.

The legal letter confirms the name of your third party Mr. Shah on the declaration. However, the legal letter does not confirm applicant's name on the declaration as required under para 41.

---------------------------------------------------------------

So basically UKBA is objecting that why the lawyer has not written that the applicant has also signed in front of him. Which was not possible as applicant was in the UK and lawyer is in Pakistan.

Questions/Comments:

1. I am quite sure that refusal is not right. If it is right, then what could have an applicant done to resolve the issue and avoid this refusal?

2. If the refusal is right then it also means no third party funding from overseas is possible until applicant flies to sign the declaration in front of third party lawyer! which is quite unusual.

3. I have seen many cases on this forum where applicant's got third party funding arranged and they got the visas without having to fly and sign the third party declaration.

4. Please share your view and please give your kind opinion that what should be basis and grounds of this appeal.

In my refusal "No declaration from UK legal representative has been supplied to establish that your validity of signature on the 3rd party declaration is valid, as you were not present at the time 3rd party signed the declaration"

I think policy guidance is not clear, if third party is in living abroad and UKBA need third party/parties signature validation only, not applicant signatures. Specially point number 6.

A letter from a legal representative confirming the validity of signatures on each third-party declaration provided, which confirms that the declaration(s) from the third party/parties contains the signatures of the people stated. It can be a single letter covering all third-party permissions, or several letters from several legal representatives. It must be an original letter and not a copy, and it must be from a legal representative permitted to practise in the country where the third party or the money is. The letter must clearly show the following:

(1) the name of the legal representative confirming the details,
(2) the registration or authority of the legal representative to practise legally in the country in which the permission or permissions was/were given,
(3) the date of the confirmation letter,
(4) the applicant's name (and the name of the applicant's team partner if the applicant is applying under the provisions in paragraph 52 of this Appendix),
(5) the third party's name,
(6) that the declaration from the third party is signed and valid, and
(7) if the third party is not a venture capitalist firm, seed funding competition or UK Government Department, the number of the third party's identity document (such as a passport or national identity card), the place of issue and dates of issue and expiry.



UKBA not mention applicant validity signature in policy guidance. My questions is whats the general LAW in UK for signing any declaration.thx

[top]

you stressing about it for nothing this reason has plenty times been ruled out by allowing the appeal in courts.

actually what happens whatever their policy says a case worker goes through and refuses the application to safe their back. technically this can not be refused but like someone wrote above it is the policy(that needs to be sorted out) they have to go through it but when they receive the appeal and arguments against it they cannot say a word on it because it is genuine reason that can not be met applicant being in UK and fund source in abroad.

it is time that this will take while appeal however I believe you will not need a hearing case would have already been withdrawn before the hearing by Home office if it is only a single reason as you stated above.

thanks..

[rahulsingh1]

Hi Rizwan - I read your posts regularly and you are a very knowledgeable member on this forum.

But in this case. The caseworker is right.

It clearly states in the guidance that the lawyer letter should attest/confirm the signatures of both the third party and the applicant.

And your letter clearly does not do the applicant bit.

And for the lawyer to attest that its your signature, you should have to be physically present when the lawyer is signing it. Unless the lawyer is a family lawyer and knows you personally, in which case, he can attest it in your absence.(that is why some candidates might not have flown out..)

But in your case you will have to do point 2 of what you have stated. Which is not unusual at all.

"2. If the refusal is right then it also means no third party funding from overseas is possible until applicant flies to sign the declaration in front of third party lawyer! which is quite unusual. "

As you know that the UK visa system is very objective. If they say that you state something in a letter, and you state it, then they cannot refuse. But if you miss stating that bit, they will refuse it.

I hope you appeal and get your visa done, although it does not change the fact that it is not the case workers mistake.

Dear forum members

I will appreciate, if you can give your valuable feedback on below refusal of an entrepreneur case based on third party funding from abroad.
----------------------------------------------------
Background:
---------------------------------------------------
1. Third party is from overseas and Applicant is from UK
2. Third party signed the declaration and took it to the lawyer, the lawyer attested the declaration confirming the signature of third party is valid.
3. Then the documents (bank letter, legal letter and declaration) are posted to UK, applicant signed the third party declaration after receiving them in UK. So basically legal letter is only confirming the signature of third party and not the applicant. As applicant has not signed the third party declaration at that point.

------------------------------------------------------
The exact wording of refusal is:
-----------------------------------------------------
You have stated that you have funding of 50k being made available to your business by a third party Mr. Shah. As evidence of this you have submitted a bank letter, declaration and legal letter.

The legal letter confirms the name of your third party Mr. Shah on the declaration. However, the legal letter does not confirm applicant's name on the declaration as required under para 41.

---------------------------------------------------------------

So basically UKBA is objecting that why the lawyer has not written that the applicant has also signed in front of him. Which was not possible as applicant was in the UK and lawyer is in Pakistan.

Questions/Comments:

1. I am quite sure that refusal is not right. If it is right, then what could have an applicant done to resolve the issue and avoid this refusal?

2. If the refusal is right then it also means no third party funding from overseas is possible until applicant flies to sign the declaration in front of third party lawyer! which is quite unusual.

3. I have seen many cases on this forum where applicant's got third party funding arranged and they got the visas without having to fly and sign the third party declaration.

4. Please share your view and please give your kind opinion that what should be basis and grounds of this appeal.

[rizwan567]

Thanks a lot for your comments. I completely and fully agree with your points and views. Specially the point number 6 which you highlighted in bold. That in UKBA policy guidance it is not clearly stated. And there is a kind of discrepancy and fair amount of ambiguity in it. Policy guidance needs to be re-written to clarify the issue.

When are you having hearing date? Your case is also similar.

I will be thankful if you can share, what should constitute the basis of appeal?

In my refusal "No declaration from UK legal representative has been supplied to establish that your validity of signature on the 3rd party declaration is valid, as you were not present at the time 3rd party signed the declaration"

I think policy guidance is not clear, if third party is in living abroad and UKBA need third party/parties signature validation only, not applicant signatures. Specially point number 6.

A letter from a legal representative confirming the validity of signatures on each third-party declaration provided, which confirms that the declaration(s) from the third party/parties contains the signatures of the people stated. It can be a single letter covering all third-party permissions, or several letters from several legal representatives. It must be an original letter and not a copy, and it must be from a legal representative permitted to practise in the country where the third party or the money is. The letter must clearly show the following:

(1) the name of the legal representative confirming the details,
(2) the registration or authority of the legal representative to practise legally in the country in which the permission or permissions was/were given,
(3) the date of the confirmation letter,
(4) the applicant's name (and the name of the applicant's team partner if the applicant is applying under the provisions in paragraph 52 of this Appendix),
(5) the third party's name,
(6) that the declaration from the third party is signed and valid, and
(7) if the third party is not a venture capitalist firm, seed funding competition or UK Government Department, the number of the third party's identity document (such as a passport or national identity card), the place of issue and dates of issue and expiry.

UKBA not mention applicant validity signature in policy guidance. My questions is whats the general LAW in UK for signing any declaration.thx

[rizwan567]

Hi Rahul, Thanks a lot for your feedback and comments which I read with some interest.

What I do not agree with you is that I dont think it is cleary written in guidance that lawyer should also confirm the signatures of the applicant. That is my intepretation of guidance. I also know where your argument and justification is coming from.

Guidance also states that legal letter should have below points:

The letter must clearly show the following:

(1) the name of the legal representative confirming the details,
(2) the registration or authority of the legal representative to practise legally in the country in which the permission or permissions was/were given,
(3) the date of the confirmation letter,
(4) the applicant's name (and the name of the applicant's team partner if the applicant is applying under the provisions in paragraph 52 of this Appendix),
(5) the third party's name,
(6) that the declaration from the third party is signed and valid, and
(7) if the third party is not a venture capitalist firm, seed funding competition or UK Government Department, the number of the third party's identity document (such as a passport or national identity card), the place of issue and dates of issue and expiry.

And the legal letter provided in this instance exactly complies with above 7 requirements. That is why I am saying guidance is not clear. Either guidance should be fixed or benefit of the doubt should be given to applicant.

What is your view on this?

Hi Rizwan - I read your posts regularly and you are a very knowledgeable member on this forum.

But in this case. The caseworker is right.

It clearly states in the guidance that the lawyer letter should attest/confirm the signatures of both the third party and the applicant.

And your letter clearly does not do the applicant bit.

And for the lawyer to attest that its your signature, you should have to be physically present when the lawyer is signing it. Unless the lawyer is a family lawyer and knows you personally, in which case, he can attest it in your absence.(that is why some candidates might not have flown out..)

But in your case you will have to do point 2 of what you have stated. Which is not unusual at all.

"2. If the refusal is right then it also means no third party funding from overseas is possible until applicant flies to sign the declaration in front of third party lawyer! which is quite unusual. "

As you know that the UK visa system is very objective. If they say that you state something in a letter, and you state it, then they cannot refuse. But if you miss stating that bit, they will refuse it.

I hope you appeal and get your visa done, although it does not change the fact that it is not the case workers mistake.

[/quote]

[rehan01]

Hi sorry to hear about refusal, I agree with Rahul explanation above but again to avoid the confusion ... Ideally you should have provided two declaration one from your third party confirming signatures etc (which you have already did) and 2nd declaration from UK lawyer where you are present and it should confirm your signatures etc.

but again you have very strong case if you go in appeal and I hope you will be fine, Evidential flexibility will be helpful as if your signature missing than case worker could have ask you to provide correct legal letter confirming the above.

regards

[rizwan567]

Rehan, thanks for sharing your views.

[boldboy88]

Hello,
Before I vary my Tier 1 (Entrepreneur) application to Tier 2, I received Refusal of my Tier 1 application!!
I have a right to appeal.
However, I wanted to get Tier 2 anyway as my circumstances have changed and my employer is ready to sponsor me.

I'm having a hard time thinking what to do,, PLEASE HELP!!