Naturalisation.. Help needed desperately!!!

[prashanthmalur]

Hi,
I am planning to apply for UK naturalisation now. My only concern now is that I've 2 penalties since last year and they are:
a) Parking penalty(PCN) £25 fine
b) 50R - Performing a prohibited turn - 'No right turn' - fine £65 but no points on licence

Just checking if this will have an affect on my naturalisation application. In the AN guide book it says one cannot have more than one FPN (fixed penalty notice). Is parking PCN (penalty charge notice) the same as any FPN? If yes, then i'll have to wait until I finish the anniversary of my parking notice which was in Aug last year. Could some clarify this for me asap? I dont want to apply until its confirmed that the above are 2 FPNs. I'm desperately seeking for an answer. Please someone help??!!

Please help..

[Amber]

Hi,
I am planning to apply for UK naturalisation now. My only concern now is that I've 2 penalties since last year and they are:
a) Parking penalty(PCN) £25 fine
b) 50R - Performing a prohibited turn - 'No right turn' - fine £65 but no points on licence

Just checking if this will have an affect on my naturalisation application. In the AN guide book it says one cannot have more than one FPN (fixed penalty notice). Is parking PCN (penalty charge notice) the same as any FPN? If yes, then i'll have to wait until I finish the anniversary of my parking notice which was in Aug last year. Could some clarify this for me asap? I dont want to apply until its confirmed that the above are 2 FPNs. I'm desperately seeking for an answer. Please someone help??!!

Please help..

A PCN is not a FPN. Therefore, as you only have one FPN in the last 12 months and providing you do not have any other convictions and meet the other other standard requirements., you should be fine.

[prashanthmalur]

A PCN is not a FPN. Therefore, as you only have one FPN in the last 12 months and providing you do not have any other convictions and meet the other other standard requirements., you should be fine.

This is what it says in UK naturalisation form "You must give details of all unspent and spent criminal convictions. This includes road traffic offences but not fixed penalty notices (such as speeding or parking tickets) unless
they were part of a sentence of the court"

So does this mean that parking tickets are fixed penalty notices (FPNs)? Also I've read somewhere that there are 2 kinds of parking tickets., PCNs & FPNs - which are issued by police, unlike PCNs which are issued by councils. What do you think of this?

[Amber]

A PCN is not a FPN. Therefore, as you only have one FPN in the last 12 months and providing you do not have any other convictions and meet the other other standard requirements., you should be fine.

This is what it says in UK naturalisation form "You must give details of all unspent and spent criminal convictions. This includes road traffic offences but not fixed penalty notices (such as speeding or parking tickets) unless
they were part of a sentence of the court"

So does this mean that parking tickets are fixed penalty notices (FPNs)? Also I've read somewhere that there are 2 kinds of parking tickets., PCNs & FPNs - which are issued by police, unlike PCNs which are issued by councils. What do you think of this?

As I have already stated PCNs are civil fines and this not counter. You only have one FPN and thus should satisfy the Good Character requirement providing there are no other convictions etc.... You may include the FPN information in the extra information if you wish.

[nevish]

Dear All,

I have used this forum in the past and must say thanks to each one of you for supporting and providing guidance to everyone who is in need.

I visited my NCS (Harrow) today thinking i shall be fine with my forms and other supporting documents, only to be shocked. I was informed by the NCS that, if i had more than one PCN or FPN during the past one year i should wait for another 12 months.

I remember i had two PCNs and the lady checking my forms inquired from the HO to confirm that, should i apply or i should wait 12 more months. To my shock HO said i should not apply and wait for 12 more months just because i have more thn 1 PCN (which was duly paid in the first 15 days) and i do not have any court summons or any other legal issues.

I mean it is very harsh that just on PCNs you have to wait for an entire one year, out of the two PCNs one of them i got because of the local garage where i had given my car for MOT and they paid me in cash for the fine. she clarified this to the HO but still they want me to wait for 12 months.


Firstly i dont remember having any FPN and dont even know what is a FPN. i know PCNs - stuck on yr windscreen by the traffic warden. I would be most grateful if someone can advise where do i stand?

do i go to another NCS or just apply directly?

Please can someone clarify regarding this.

[Amber]

I would wait. I am awaiting the new guidance on whether PCN/PNDs will be treated akin to a FPN for the purpose of Good Character as it is currently not clear an no-one really knows.

[nevish]

OK, thanks a lot for your prompt response Amber. I really appreciate it.

Thanks and Regards,

Vish

[Heisgood]

Dear All,

I have used this forum in the past and must say thanks to each one of you for supporting and providing guidance to everyone who is in need.

I visited my NCS (Harrow) today thinking i shall be fine with my forms and other supporting documents, only to be shocked. I was informed by the NCS that, if i had more than one PCN or FPN during the past one year i should wait for another 12 months.

I remember i had two PCNs and the lady checking my forms inquired from the HO to confirm that, should i apply or i should wait 12 more months. To my shock HO said i should not apply and wait for 12 more months just because i have more thn 1 PCN (which was duly paid in the first 15 days) and i do not have any court summons or any other legal issues.

I mean it is very harsh that just on PCNs you have to wait for an entire one year, out of the two PCNs one of them i got because of the local garage where i had given my car for MOT and they paid me in cash for the fine. she clarified this to the HO but still they want me to wait for 12 months.


Firstly i dont remember having any FPN and dont even know what is a FPN. i know PCNs - stuck on yr windscreen by the traffic warden. I would be most grateful if someone can advise where do i stand?

do i go to another NCS or just apply directly?

Please can someone clarify regarding this.

Sorry to hear this, however this doesn’t make sense according to HO AN guidance it states.

"We would not normally take Fixed Penalty Notices into account, unless you have had more than one fixed penalty notice in the last 12 months. In that case, you may wish to wait to make your application until you have no more than one fixed penalty notice in the 12 month period before applying"

Are you sure you don't have multiple FPNs? A PCN on its own should not be a show stopper for BC applicants. In fact there are threads on the forum where people don't even declare packing tickets as per HO Guidance here

"You must give details of all unspent criminal convictions. This includes road traffic offences but NOT fixed penalty notices (such as speeding or PARKING TICKETS) unless they were given in court."

How can you win when the guidance states this emphatically while HO and NCS says otherwise........who do you believe? The guidance or the people who don't know the guidance? Food for thought.

[Amber]

Actually, you'll find the caseworker guidance is ambiguous and a FPN can be possibly be read as including a PCN and PND. It is correct that people have not disclosed PCNs/PNDs but that still doesn't help with the issue at hand. The new guidance should provide clarity and is expected in October.

[Heisgood]

Actually, you'll find the caseworker guidance is ambiguous and a FPN can be possibly be read as including a PCN and PND. It is correct that people have not disclosed PCNs/PNDs but that still doesn't help with the issue at hand. The new guidance should provide clarity and is expected in October.

Print the guide and use another NCS will help the issue at hand IMO. It's back to my question who do you believe? The guidance or the people who don't know the guidance?

Why write something that says A for applicants and then say it's interpretation means B for case workers - Is this the applicant fault for HO lack of clarity?

Amber, you have done a really good job on the good character section, however this lack of clarity from HO is a real shame.

[Amber]

It's certainly an issue for the Home Office to resolve. However, as Good Character is perhaps the most complex and ambiguous part of the requirements (although others follow close behind), one should be careful how their character is judged. This was the same issue for suspended sentences until recently. And it does not matter whether the conviction is spent, all convictions must be declared as the 1974 Act is no longer applicable. The UKBA website just has not been updated, I would imagine.

[Heisgood]

It's certainly an issue for the Home Office to resolve. However, as Good Character is perhaps the most complex and ambiguous part of the requirements (although others follow close behind), one should be careful how their character is judged. This was the same issue for suspended sentences until recently. And it does not matter whether the conviction is spent, all convictions must be declared as the 1974 Act is no longer applicable. The UKBA website just has not been updated, I would imagine.

Agreed, but is a parking ticket really about your character?
In my opinion this is HO only way of rejecting applications easily and there is no appetite for clarification. Until the guidance is absolutely clear people can only use the guidance that’s in front of them and available on their website. Let’s hope the new guidance bring clarity and not more confusion.

[nevish]

Dear All,

I am really thankful for your prompt responses and support, I had two PCNs only and haven’t had any FPNs. I have never been stopped by police and given spot fines.

The lady at NCS specifically inquired about PCN and HO advised not to proceed with the application. I am just gutted; I have gone through enough issues with HO now over the last few years. I feel it is just a way to generate revenue off people.

I pray everyday for each and everyone who is going through these visa issues. When I was leaving I did say to the lady very politely, I am sorry but how does it define my character due to some PCNs, there are people out there who are actually exploiting the system and living off hard working tax payer’s money.

I cannot wait for this amended version of the guidance.

Regards,

Vish

[Amber]

I keep pushing and it's finally paid off as they've agreed to change the guidance. Hopefully it'll be much more clear in a short time.

It is worth noting that a PCN and PND are actually both FPNs.

[nevish]

hi Amber,

Thanks for your prompt response again and i guess everyone appreciates your effort and the amount of support you give to these people.

regards,

Vish

[Heisgood]

I keep pushing and it's finally paid off as they've agreed to change the guidance. Hopefully it'll be much more clear in a short time.

It is worth noting that a PCN and PND are actually both FPNs.

According to UK law this is what is described as a PCN

A PCN is a penalty for contravention of regulations. It can be paid or contested by appeal or by defending a claim for payment under the small claims track of the county court.

Most parking/waiting restrictions in the UK are now enforced as a civil rather than a criminal matter – a PCN doesn't result in a criminal record or points on your licence.

Amber, are you saying HO sees PCNs as FPNs for the sake of good character? If yes then this new guidance may stop a lot of people obtaining citizenship or at least delay their application for another 12mths. With one month to go I think I better catch the bus .....

[Heisgood]

Dear All,

I am really thankful for your prompt responses and support, I had two PCNs only and haven’t had any FPNs. I have never been stopped by police and given spot fines.

The lady at NCS specifically inquired about PCN and HO advised not to proceed with the application. I am just gutted; I have gone through enough issues with HO now over the last few years. I feel it is just a way to generate revenue off people.

I pray everyday for each and everyone who is going through these visa issues. When I was leaving I did say to the lady very politely, I am sorry but how does it define my character due to some PCNs, there are people out there who are actually exploiting the system and living off hard working tax payer’s money.

I cannot wait for this amended version of the guidance.

Regards,

Vish

Vish keep your head up you have ILR and hopefully you will cross this last hurdle soon! Drive carefully......

[Amber]

I am not saying that a FPN or PND issued by the police will be treated the same as a PCN under the new guidance. What I meant is that an FPN includes PCN and PND so at the moment it would appear that a FPN includes a PCN. So the new guidance should clarify what is included and not in their definition of FPN.

[nevish]

hello ppl,

thnx for the kind words heisgood.

Just to update i inquired from various councils and to my pleasant surprise there are a majority of councils out there who say PCN is not an issue to them and will readily forward the application. They asked me if i had any unspent conviction, court order or points on counterpart? which i dont have and hence they were happy for me to proceed further.

However, it remains to be seen what the HO actually does with my application.

i have decided to go ahead with one of my other local councils and see what happens. As for me this is pure inconsistency - one council says something the other says something else.

shall keep you all posted.

thanks once again to you all for support

regards,

Vish

[Heisgood]

hello ppl,

thnx for the kind words heisgood.

Just to update i inquired from various councils and to my pleasant surprise there are a majority of councils out there who say PCN is not an issue to them and will readily forward the application. They asked me if i had any unspent conviction, court order or points on counterpart? which i dont have and hence they were happy for me to proceed further.

However, it remains to be seen what the HO actually does with my application.

i have decided to go ahead with one of my other local councils and see what happens. As for me this is pure inconsistency - one council says something the other says something else.

shall keep you all posted.

thanks once again to you all for support

regards,

Vish

The inconsistency is all HO fault and they need to produce clear guidance on this issue ASAP. All the best Vish. Keep us posted on the outcome.

[nevish]

Dear All,

After a lot of consultation with a number of solicitors and friends, i submitted my application via Brent council today. I am pleased to say it went all smoothly without any problems.

Did you guys know that section 2.7 in the AN form, clearly mentions that road offences does not include FPN's and thn when you actually read the guidance it says otherwise. I am sure you all must have read this and felt exactly the same to what i did - CONFUSED

After i submitted my documents i inquired to the lady about it and she couldnt answer appropriatelyl, as in clearly.

I would strongly suggest to go to the councils and apply without any fear if you havent done anything wrong .

I shall keep you guys posted about my status. I have been advised a waiting period of 5-6 months due to huge backlogs.

Hope this gives a bit of strength and clarity. Basically i wouldnt even mention PCNs during the meeting. This is exactly all of the solicitors and friends advised me.

regards,

Vish

[Alimanu]

Dear All,

After a lot of consultation with a number of solicitors and friends, i submitted my application via Brent council today. I am pleased to say it went all smoothly without any problems.

Did you guys know that section 2.7 in the AN form, clearly mentions that road offences does not include FPN's and thn when you actually read the guidance it says otherwise. I am sure you all must have read this and felt exactly the same to what i did - CONFUSED

After i submitted my documents i inquired to the lady about it and she couldnt answer appropriatelyl, as in clearly.

I would strongly suggest to go to the councils and apply without any fear if you havent done anything wrong .

I shall keep you guys posted about my status. I have been advised a waiting period of 5-6 months due to huge backlogs.

Hope this gives a bit of strength and clarity. Basically i wouldnt even mention PCNs during the meeting. This is exactly all of the solicitors and friends advised me.

regards,

Vish

Nevish, I think you are on the right track... my friend was driving without a full UK driving licence, he was caught and given points.. His application still went through without any problem or delays.