Is PIO a safer bet than OCI?

[Ayyubi72]

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... iew=Binary

7.5 For the purposes of British nationality law, OCI is
considered to be citizenship of another State. This will be
relevant where British law requires the person to be
stateless (as, for example, in
Schedule 2
to the British
Nationality Act 1981) or to have no citizenship or
nationality apart from a qualifying form of British
nationality (as, for example, in
s.4B
to the 1981 Act). In
these cases, confirmation of non-acquisition of OCI should
be sought where the applicant appears to satisfy the
criteria in paragraph 7.4 above.

Reply from HO dated 25th September 2012 to an FOI request.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... I.pdf.html

[vij_sp_1980]

Interesting... i dont know...

[Ayyubi72]

Problem arises from the fact the OCI came into being as result of amendment to Indian Citizenship Act 1955. The whole idea to include OCI in Indian citizenship Act is bonkers.

The qualifying criteria is mentioned in the Act. OCI is mentioned as a "status".

OCI has no major advantage over PIO. Unless someone wants to get Indian citizenship back in 5 years, there does not seem to be any point in applying for OCI. I am sure if PIO fees was lower than OCI, more people will go for PIO.

The whole idea of OCI is very confusing. Why did they not just upgrade PIO with similar facilities as current OCI?

Now Rajya Sabha has made some further amendments to the Act. But the name change to "Overseas Indian Cardholder" will not change anything as far as UK government is concerned, as this new OIC status will exactly be same as current OCI.

I appears that the bill to amend Citizenship Act has only been passed by Rajya Sabha. The bill has not even been moved to Lok Sabha yet, and there is no chance bill will go through in the current Lok Sabha as the general elections are not far away. So, even changing the name of OCI to OIC may take several years.

[VR]

Ayyubi72,

I thought from your context it meant ''Person of Irish Origin''.
cheers
vr

[Ayyubi72]

Persons of Irish Origin do not need any cards. They always keep their national passports.

[quantumscience]

I had my doubts around this OCI mess (well, visa as they say!) ever since i first read the wording on the eligibility section in HCI website – i.e. “the applicant’s country should allow dual citizenship for India to grant OCI to the applicant” For a visa????? such a requirement!!!!

I am not going any closer to even considering this nightmare-ish visa... well errr...Citizenship... hmmm... maybe a half-baked egg... whatever, of course... now this will be renamed to OIC cards (until it is changed to ICO, and JPEG, BMP and PNG etc. in future).

I have been a PIO for over 8 years now (travelled to India several times) and it’s all been just fine. Happy with it. I recommended PIO for my wife too. She even got the card in less than 4 weeks from the date of application.

I have never understood why people go flooding for this OCI.. only to go and queue up in line outside HCI again and again for changing it to all other future 3 letter word cards!

[imranb]

I had my doubts around this OCI mess (well, visa as they say!) ever since i first read the wording on the eligibility section in HCI website – i.e. “the applicant’s country should allow dual citizenship for India to grant OCI to the applicant” For a visa????? such a requirement!!!!

I am not going any closer to even considering this nightmare-ish visa... well errr...Citizenship... hmmm... maybe a half-baked egg... whatever, of course... now this will be renamed to OIC cards (until it is changed to ICO, and JPEG, BMP and PNG etc. in future).

I have been a PIO for over 8 years now (travelled to India several times) and it’s all been just fine. Happy with it. I recommended PIO for my wife too. She even got the card in less than 4 weeks from the date of application.

I have never understood why people go flooding for this OCI.. only to go and queue up in line outside HCI again and again for changing it to all other future 3 letter word cards!

One of the reasons why I would prefer OCI over PIO is that it gives you the option of packing up and going back to India indefinitely. Most of us have left our elderly parents back in India and live constantly in the fear of your parents needing you in times of emergency and maybe even needing to re-settle back in India for a while , and OCI purportedly promises to allow you to go back whenever required and stay, work and re-settle again back home.

OCI treats you at par with NRIs, which means you can live indefinitely in India, and also work like a normal Indian citizen would do.
PIO, due to the fact that you cannot stay for more than 6 months unless you register with the police does not give you that peace of mind, as well as not being considered at par with NRI’s, you might not be able to find work and/or entry into educational institutes.

So I would say that OCI is very good for new 1st generation immigrants who have strong roots back in India and want the doors of re-settling to remain open. Whereas for 2nd/3rd generation British Indians who have no strong family connections back in India, and are only looking for an alternative for a tourist visa, PIO might be preferable.

Having said all of the above, I totally agree that red tapism that is involved in going through the entire process is very disappointing. The arrogance and incompetence of the officials makes matters much worse.

Just my opinion. Happy to be corrected.

[quantumscience]

PIO, due to the fact that you cannot stay for more than 6 months unless you register with the police does not give you that peace of mind

Actually, when i was in India last time, i went to the FRRO office to enquire on this (also just so you know you do not need to register with police station as every one else thinks!), the FRRO said if i intended to stay more than 6 months in any one visit, I will need to register with them (not with a police officer/station - being a PIO card holder is not a criminal offense in India )... its just a formality, and a one page application form to fill, and it will always be approved in literally 3 days time.
He was laughing at me when I asked on the requirement to go to a police station to do this

So, this FRRO registration aspect is nothing of a big deal as has been depicted in HCI website and also in Media. Its quite a simple process. It only takes few minutes of your time to apply and off you go on with your life (i.e. staying more than 6 months or for ever - if you wish!)

This is what i was told in a FRRO office, and they asked if i wanted to register, and i said no i did not intend to stay that long anyway, but wanted to check this with them since i had my doubts about this process.

One of the reasons why I would prefer OCI over PIO is that it gives you the option of packing up and going back to India indefinitely.

You can do this with PIO as well. I have confirmed this with FRRO. The only thing you need to do is to register (a.k.a. FYI - fill up a form for a guaranteed approval ) with FRRO for your intention to stay longer, and off you go. They give you a certificate (by post) confirming that, apparently. So you can stay indefinitely on PIO too.

Most of us have left our elderly parents back in India and live constantly in the fear of your parents needing you in times of emergency and maybe even needing to re-settle back in India for a while , and OCI purportedly promises to allow you to go back whenever required and stay, work and re-settle again back home.

Same with PIO. PIO card holders also have emotional attachment like that , and they can also go and be next to their parents as they grow older... with just PIO card (and a FRO registration - a very simple process]. Also yes a PIO card holder can take up employment, continue education, etc etc in India just like OCIs and NRIs, and live there for ever (yes after a FRRO reg. ).

Whereas for 2nd/3rd generation British Indians who have no strong family connections back in India, and are only looking for an alternative for a tourist visa, PIO might be preferable.

PIO is not a glorified tourist visa. It clearly states in HCI and Indian govt. web sites that it is a "multi-purpose" visa - there are no extra visas required, and you can go to India and settle... not for by-passing tourist visa purposes.

as well as not being considered at par with NRI’s, you might not be able to find work and/or entry into educational institutes.

You are wrong on this one too. Actually PIOs are considered on par with NRIs just like OCIs (even the HCI website says this). There are no restrictions in finding work, or getting employed there (excepting in a govt. job, which is equally a constraint for OCIs) or getting your children into education there.

So, quite frankly, apart from being able to get Indian citizenship back quickly (and consequently losing the British one!) and not having to register with FRRO, there is no practical difference between OCI and PIO at all.

On the contrary, OCI is the worst option to be honest... since the OCI only adds complications (given the OP's post). What if Britain does not recognize dual nationality all of a sudden ? I know this won't happen, but if it did, you will have to run around to get PIO or something else at that time or lose British status altogether.
Note my words now... one day people will say OCI was the worst decision anyone has ever taken.

PIO gives you "best of both"

I write so passionately about this topic every chance i get because I am fed up with the amount of new changes they keep on bringing, all of which seem to be almost similar. Either they should give us the full status or let us just be on PIO status enabling hassle free travel/stay/long term residence etc., rather than confusing with many variants of the "same thing": OCI, OIC, ICO, IOC, etc. every few years once

Reference this post on the new change coming soon :

Ayyubi wrote:
Thanks to ban.s, who enlightened us that OCI will be renamed OIC, and some other changes made.

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=152731

Looking at many people's confusion just like yours, it looks like the Indian govt. has purposefully tried to mis-sell PIO, if I can put it that way, especially with this aspect of registration with police station bit . That is a taboo. They are scaremongering on that one. If you don't believe me, please call up any FRRO office in India and they will tell you this

[Ayyubi72]

Yes. Agree with every single word of quantumscience. Very well put all the aspects of OCI and PIO.

I have decided not to apply for OCI. Will just go for PIO. Not letting them put this Overseas Citizen of India sticker in my passport.

Either they give us full citizenship, or else I am more than happy with PIO.

No point in being a British Citizen and also half citizen half non-citzen no one knows if a citizen or not citizen OCI/OIC of Republic of India.

[Ayyubi72]

By the way, name change to OIC from OCI will not change British govts view.

It will exactly be the same criteria, under the same Citizenship Act 1955.

Only thing that will change will be the new name OIC, and some people who previously could not become OCI will be able to become OIC. That is only if the bill goes through lok sabha as well, and there is only a slightly more than zero percent chance of that happening during the tenure of current govt. The whole thing will have to start again after elections.

[quantumscience]

Ayyubi72 wrote:
The whole thing will have to start again after elections.

Correct... and at that time, they will propose it to be named as IOC

[Ayyubi72]

I just wonder, when we already had PIO, then what was the point of this whole exercise of OCI ? Creating all these new procedures and drama, for what? What was gained by people of Indian origin who were foreign citizens?

There was a long standing demand to amend citizenship act, so that Indians who become citizen of other countries do not loose Indian Citizen. In other words, asking Indian govt to allow dual citizenship. This demand was never fulfilled. They just came up with this OCI to fool people. And look how gullible Indians are. As soon as OCI was created, they were all singing and dancing and applied for this OCI in droves. Exactly like in India, when politicians come, people play dhols, sing and dance, shower them with flowers, and shout Zindabad.

[ban.s]

Has anyone ever questioned the correctness of nationality instruction guidance w.r.t. OCI or sought proper interpretation in the court of law? No doubt OCI is a half baked approach to dual citizenship and moreover term is confusing but OCI is not citizenship as far as the international law is concerned. OCI registration document is not a travel document. Depriving a OCI holder British Citizen’s nationality may make him stateless unless that person holds another nationality (true dual citizenship).

Check the last line of the FOI reply
In accordance with Chapter 14 Annex H of the Nationality guidance, available on the UK Border Agency website, for the purposes of British nationality law, OCI is considered to be a citizenship of another State. This will be relevant where we propose to deprive a person of his or her British nationality, under section 40 of the 1981 Act, but need to be satisfied that s/he would not become stateless as a result.

Foreign Office has earlier confirmed that OCI holders, like any other British Nationals, will receive consular assistance in India should there be any need.

OCI, PIO or other visa applications are personal choice – each has its benefits and constraints. ‘best’ or ‘safe’ are relative terminology. one should choose the option that suits him “best” irrespective of how others view that option.

[quantumscience]

Ban.s - i agree to your nice interpretations, etc. But in a real practical world, if a family of 4 (with children there) get stranded in the middle of nowhere in the planet, where a port officer is questioning the whole status thing before they let someone enter the country, do we think this little family will be able to say the things you are saying - i.e. all these legal jargon words to the officers? Do we think a local consulate will even pick up the phone call from this little family to clarify to the port authorities, etc.

There is one in a trillion chance for an Indian consulate to pick up the phone and answer, let alone offer consular help.

This is just one hypothetical scenario i am talking about. Who knows what other grey areas are hidden in this OCI business.
We already know from one other forum post where the MOIA have questioned the OCI applicant as to their employment in UK govt. dept. and hence raised an objection for granting the OCI status. We all know this kind of restriction is not at all documented anywhere.

All my point of view is that we need to be practical in this visa, and realize that we are not (all of us) legal experts to go on interpreting things and get our way cleared easily, at the middle of our travel across the planet
Why deal with this hell at all, in the first place

Hence my argument would be, every one should go for PIO until the Indian govt. sort out their meaningless mess around this half-baked non-sense OCI/OIC whatever status.

I rest my case. Its is up to others to decide for themselves.
I will not be surprised if we hear of more horror stories in the future from OCI holders (I wish not though!)

[Ayyubi72]

Can't disagree with your view either ban.s

OCI is considered to be a citizenship of another State. This will be relevant where we propose to deprive a person of his or her British nationality, under section 40 of the 1981 Act, but need to be satisfied that s/he would not become stateless as a result.

HO also seems confused and unclear too. Consider OCI to be a citizenship of another State and at the same time need to be satisfied that s/he would not become stateless. I don't understand how can they make both statements in the same para.

[ban.s]

Ban.s - i agree to your nice interpretations, etc. But in a real practical world, if a family of 4 (with children there) get stranded in the middle of nowhere in the planet, where a port officer is questioning the whole status thing before they let someone enter the country, do we think this little family will be able to say the things you are saying - i.e. all these legal jargon words to the officers? Do we think a local consulate will even pick up the phone call from this little family to clarify to the port authorities, etc.

There is one in a trillion chance for an Indian consulate to pick up the phone and answer, let alone offer consular help.

I am not sure in what hypothetical situation you foresee the family to be stranded. An OCI holder, during his travel, will always be recognised by his passport - not by the U visa stamp in it.

Also a British Passport holder will ask consular help from british high commission / embassies. Indian authorities will have no involvement.

I can't stop yourself worring but hundreds of people travel daily with OCI around the globe without any issue.

[ban.s]

In my opinion OCI and PIO are basically the same with some key exceptions

-- not all PIO holders are eligible for OCI but does that matter?
-- Initial application cost of PIO is higher than OCI (however in grand scale of things the difference is negligible)
-- For an adult PIO requires renewal every 15 years, OCI require renewal once a new passport is obtained after age of 50 – I am pretty sure all recent applicants will see both these routes merged even before they reach the renewal stage
-- PIO will require registration with FRRO for stay in India beyond 6 months however if anyone decides to stay there long term this will not be a difficult job to acheive

[samkma]

PIO was the best for me.
OCI -2 Children under 10yrs so OCI must be twice before they are 20yrs old!
The wife and myself in 40's so got to renew in less than 10yrs!

So PIO is the best option for me - while comparing to the hassles of going through this stressful process again and again!

All I am looking for is a VISA to travel to India anytime without having the need to apply for a Entry visa!

[InUkOnHsmp]

How do each of these compare in terms of getting them done from India, can people who have done this please provide some timelines for the following:

1) OCI timelines when applying from India
2) PIO timelines when applying from India

For people with kids and who are moving to India, I guess the common hassle is to renew passports again and again on expiry, with PIO it looks like you dont need to renew PIO as well every time you renew your passport. Is this not the case with OCI?

Which is better from the long term safety point of view? If you have an OCI card, I guess you are relaxed for life, since its a life long visa?

Any restrictions in either case, which requires the family to come back to Britain in some period (maybe on expiration of PIO period)?

Thanks in advance for inputs.

[quantumscience]

All i can say is that an FRRO had confirmed to me that the applicaiton for long tern stay in India with PIO card is a very easy process.