Surinder Singh

[Static]

Found the below here:
http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/servlet/Front ... 6679156328
Can anybody shed some light on it? I haven't been living here 'legally' although it wasn't 'illegally' because my application was in process. Therefore surely it doesn't apply to me? Also.. my two months in England doesn't count as legal quite clearly by my rejection letter.

21.4.8 Surinder Singh cases
The ECJ case of Surinder Singh states that nationals of a Member State who go with their non-EEA family members to another Member State to exercise a Treaty right in an economic capacity, (as a worker or self-employed person) will on return to their home state, be entitled to bring their non-EEA family members to join them under EC law. (For example a British national and his non-EEA national spouse/children who have lived in Germany and exercised an economic treaty right and are now returning to the UK).

The Surinder Singh judgement is now incorporated into the EEA Regulations in Regulation 9.

It is confined to those cases where a British national has exercised an economic Treaty right and the Non-EEA national family member can demonstrate their lawful residence in a member state. (see section 21.4.1 on applications made from another Member State for more information on lawful residence requirements).

It does not matter if the only reason the British national went to another Member State to exercise an economic Treaty right was so that he/she could come back to the UK with his/her family members under EC law.

The non-EEA spouse will be eligible for entry into the UK under the Surinder Singh ruling provided that the marriage is valid and that the couple are not formally divorced. This applies even in cases where the non-EEA national spouse has not lived with the British national for the whole period during which Treaty rights were exercised. You may, however, find along with other evidence that this leads you to believe it to be a marriage of convenience.

Evidence that the couple have lived together may include:

a registration certificate/residence card issued by the Member State;
tenancy agreements; or,
joint bank statements.

You should seek advice from ECO Support where you are unsure about the decision to be taken in applying the Surinder Singh judgement.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Can anybody shed some light on it? I haven't been living here 'legally' although it wasn't 'illegally' because my application was in process. Therefore surely it doesn't apply to me? Also.. my two months in England doesn't count as legal quite clearly by my rejection letter.

I am happy to try. Where would you like extra light? I am not sure if you are asking about applicability of the Singh ruling to Ireland, or about you moving to the UK.

You have definitely been living legally in Ireland. I doubt anyone has asked you to leave or suggested you were not living in Ireland legally. Because of that, I think you will have no problem if you and your partner apply for an EEA family permit for a weekend trip to the UK. Did you get a family permit for the pervious trip?

Finally, I take it from your post that you had time in the UK previously and you had mentioned that in your EU1 application. If that is correct, what evidence did you provide of previous UK residency? What exactly did the Irish government say in their rejection letter about that time?

[Static]

Can anybody shed some light on it? I haven't been living here 'legally' although it wasn't 'illegally' because my application was in process. Therefore surely it doesn't apply to me? Also.. my two months in England doesn't count as legal quite clearly by my rejection letter.

I am happy to try. Where would you like extra light?

You have definitely been living legally in Ireland. I doubt anyone has asked you to leave or suggested you were not living in Ireland legally. Because of that, I think you will have no problem if you and your partner apply for an EEA family permit for a weekend trip to the UK. Did you get a family permit for the pervious trip?

Finally, I take it from your post that you had time in the UK previously and you had mentioned that in your EU1 application. If that is correct, what evidence did you provide of previous UK residency? What exactly did the Irish government say in their rejection letter about that time?

No, nobody has asked me to leave. I don't think I would be able to apply for an EEA family permit for a weekend visit as we don't require visas to travel in the UK. I will, however, try to do this.

I provided proof of residing in the UK by means of bills, letters and a rental contract. In the rejection letter they said: '....The provisions of Regulation 3 (2) require that in order to avail of residency rights under the regulations, applicants must submit evidence showing lawful residence in another EU Member State prior to arrival in Ireland. Following a thorough examinaion of your file, it was decided that no evidence was submitted to satisfy this requirement and that therefore, residence can not be granted....' In other words... the bills, letters and rental contract in England mean absolutely nothing.

[Static]

What I would like light on is the semantics of 'legally residing' anywhere. If I was not concidered legal in the UK before getting here, how can I be concidered 'legally residing' here for the EEA family permit application.

[runie80]

Call the Feckers and ask them

I am not a mind reader. so kinldy please explain what you mean by "must submit evidence showing lawful residence in another EU Member State"

can you be more specific as you are about the acceptance of documents so why dont u point out exactly what documents you need ?

Tell them show me any document saying that this will not be accepted intermes of " lawful residence in another EU Member State"


Get everything from them in writing

The cheeky feckers are just playing arround with you.

If they will give me a call like that.My next step will be going to Garda station and lodge and official complain. They cant be messing to everyone like this.

This is a fecking JOKE !

[Static]

Call the Feckers and ask them

I am not a mind reader. so kinldy please explain what you mean by "must submit evidence showing lawful residence in another EU Member State"

can you be more specific as you are about the acceptance of documents so why dont u point out exactly what documents you need ?

Tell them show me any document saying that this will not be accepted intermes of " lawful residence in another EU Member State"


Get everything from them in writing

The cheeky feckers are just playing arround with you.

If they will give me a call like that.My next step will be going to Garda station and lodge and official complain. They cant be messing to everyone like this.

This is a fecking JOKE !

Runie.. have you tried calling the DOJ? It is nearly impossible to get through. Then.. IF you manage to get through 9/10 times they put the phone down on you. Also.. if you ring them they speak absolute nonsense. Almost all of us were told that we just need to arrive here, do the EU1 thing and we CANNOT be refused. Ringing them is a waste of time.

[runie80]

Runie.. have you tried calling the DOJ? It is nearly impossible to get through. Then.. IF you manage to get through 9/10 times they put the phone down on you. Also.. if you ring them they speak absolute nonsense. Almost all of us were told that we just need to arrive here, do the EU1 thing and we CANNOT be refused. Ringing them is a waste of time.

So what you are going to do then ? you cant sit without working and in this limbo situation. They have to give you some sort of a clear explainiation.

Do you have the right to appeal ?

get the soliciter and go down that appeal route if they took longer than 6 months they are alreday in breach of the conditions.

Call them and speak to the manager and ask them you want to discuss this with someone in authority.

raise the profile for your case
ring the papers and get it in press or something man.

If you are in right you shouldnt be affraid

There are loads of people who got refused like u but the problem is that you accept it as your fate

"defeat is not when you fall down its when you cant get up "

Keep the ball in their court !

Decsion expected in the court soon hopefully we will get sorted and after thet i would love to rub it in their face !

[Static]

Runie.. have you tried calling the DOJ? It is nearly impossible to get through. Then.. IF you manage to get through 9/10 times they put the phone down on you. Also.. if you ring them they speak absolute nonsense. Almost all of us were told that we just need to arrive here, do the EU1 thing and we CANNOT be refused. Ringing them is a waste of time.

So what you are going to do then ? you cant sit without working and in this limbo situation. They have to give you some sort of a clear explainiation.

Do you have the right to appeal ?

get the soliciter and go down that appeal route if they took longer than 6 months they are alreday in breach of the conditions.

Call them and speak to the manager and ask them you want to discuss this with someone in authority.

raise the profile for your case
ring the papers and get it in press or something man.

If you are in right you shouldnt be affraid

There are loads of people who got refused like u but the problem is that you accept it as your fate

"defeat is not when you fall down its when you cant get up "

Keep the ball in their court !

Decsion expected in the court soon hopefully we will get sorted and after thet i would love to rub it in their face !

I am not sitting down at all. I am going for a job interview today to try and swing somebody into applying for a workpermit for me.

I contacted Solvit yesterday, I am appealing the decision (busy typing the letter now) applying for the EEA family permit. As for contacting the media... I and many others have already done that. I have telephoned, e-mailed and sent letters to all the newspapers as well as television guys.

Like I said before.. ringing is not an option. Every time I have telephoned and asked to speak to somebody in charge the phone was put down on me. As for a solicitor. I can barely feed my children at this stage let alone afford a solictor. I know what I can and can't do. What I don't know is what is concidered 'legal residence' and that is why I started this thread.

[runie80]

well i hope all goes fine with you.

I applied loads of jobs in the past weeks and

I got calls from about 5 companies willing to interview me. And when they asked me about me residence status they refused to go any further FLAT OUT. so i dont know whats the chances of getting a decent job in this limbo situation.

I am just converting all this negative energy inside me and at appropriate time there will be a pay back time.

I will not let Any depertment here play with my future.

Good luck with job hunting.I know living with children puts you on the backfoot as you can make ur self suffer but one wouldnt want his children suffer.

I hope all Goes well and the Court decision holds the key.
Keep positive and i believe there will be a way out of all this.

Good luck and stay intouch

[Static]

I was refused only 1 so far and their reason was that it is contract work!?!? which also doesn't make sense. So.. hope for the best today.

[runie80]

heheh i dont know what sort of job you are looking for

But i only applied for jobs above 30k

as i already have a half decent job

but i can get a micky mouse job in 2 days thats not a problem

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

No, nobody has asked me to leave. I don't think I would be able to apply for an EEA family permit for a weekend visit as we don't require visas to travel in the UK. I will, however, try to do this.

The UK requires that all spouses of EU citizens get an EEA family permit if they are entering on that basis, so you can definitely apply for it. You do not need to normally require a visa.

I provided proof of residing in the UK by means of bills, letters and a rental contract. In the rejection letter they said: '....The provisions of Regulation 3 (2) require that in order to avail of residency rights under the regulations, applicants must submit evidence showing lawful residence in another EU Member State prior to arrival in Ireland. Following a thorough examinaion of your file, it was decided that no evidence was submitted to satisfy this requirement and that therefore, residence can not be granted....' In other words... the bills, letters and rental contract in England mean absolutely nothing.

Were you legally in the UK, with entry stamps on your passport for the time?

That is another benefit of getting an EEA family permit, if even for a short visit. With the family permit in your passport, you will definitely be legally resident in the UK for the duration of your trip. And then you can point to the EEA family permit, and to the entry stamp in your passport for that visit to prove your legal residency.

Good for you for keeping positive and looking for more ways to force the Irish government to behave properly!

[Static]

No, nobody has asked me to leave. I don't think I would be able to apply for an EEA family permit for a weekend visit as we don't require visas to travel in the UK. I will, however, try to do this.

The UK requires that all spouses of EU citizens get an EEA family permit if they are entering on that basis, so you can definitely apply for it. You do not need to normally require a visa.

I provided proof of residing in the UK by means of bills, letters and a rental contract. In the rejection letter they said: '....The provisions of Regulation 3 (2) require that in order to avail of residency rights under the regulations, applicants must submit evidence showing lawful residence in another EU Member State prior to arrival in Ireland. Following a thorough examinaion of your file, it was decided that no evidence was submitted to satisfy this requirement and that therefore, residence can not be granted....' In other words... the bills, letters and rental contract in England mean absolutely nothing.

Were you legally in the UK, with entry stamps on your passport for the time?

That is another benefit of getting an EEA family permit, if even for a short visit. With the family permit in your passport, you will definitely be legally resident in the UK for the duration of your trip. And then you can point to the EEA family permit, and to the entry stamp in your passport for that visit to prove your legal residency.

Good for you for keeping positive and looking for more ways to force the Irish government to behave properly!

Yes entry stamps and all that - totally legal Ok I will give it a bash. I'm off to my interview now

[Platinum]

I provided proof of residing in the UK by means of bills, letters and a rental contract.

For the Surinder Singh cases in the UK, the general recommendation is to prove that you've lived in another EU country, with the EU citizen "exercising his/her treaty rights", for at least six months. I don't know that this number is official, but I believe that's what's considered the least amount of time that the UK would look upon as "residency" and "exercising treaty rights". Maybe Ireland is doing the same?

Even if that is the requirement, it's not like they'd tell us, of course.

[Static]

I provided proof of residing in the UK by means of bills, letters and a rental contract.

For the Surinder Singh cases in the UK, the general recommendation is to prove that you've lived in another EU country, with the EU citizen "exercising his/her treaty rights", for at least six months. I don't know that this number is official, but I believe that's what's considered the least amount of time that the UK would look upon as "residency" and "exercising treaty rights". Maybe Ireland is doing the same?

Even if that is the requirement, it's not like they'd tell us, of course.

Ah! Thank you Now that makes a lot more sense.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

I provided proof of residing in the UK by means of bills, letters and a rental contract.

For the Surinder Singh cases in the UK, the general recommendation is to prove that you've lived in another EU country, with the EU citizen "exercising his/her treaty rights", for at least six months. I don't know that this number is official, but I believe that's what's considered the least amount of time that the UK would look upon as "residency" and "exercising treaty rights". Maybe Ireland is doing the same?

If you are a spouse of an EU citizen, then there is no requirement that you be or intend to be in the UK for 6 months before you are considered resident. UK law explicitly considers you resident in the UK if you visit for a day or two. The UK transposition of Directive 2004/38/EC is The Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006 and says:

Initial right of residence
13.—(1) An EEA national is entitled to reside in the United Kingdom for a period not exceeding three months beginning on the date on which he is admitted to the United Kingdom provided that he holds a valid national identity card or passport issued by an EEA State.
(2) A family member of an EEA national residing in the United Kingdom under paragraph (1) who is not himself an EEA national is entitled to reside in the United Kingdom provided that he holds a valid passport.
(3) But—
(a) this regulation is subject to regulation 19(3)(b); and
(b) an EEA national or his family member who becomes an unreasonable burden on the social assistance system of the United Kingdom shall cease to have the right to reside under this regulation.

UK law is clear that the EU national and the non-EU family member are residing in the UK for any visit to the UK made on the basis of Directive 2004/38/EC.

EU law (in Directive 2004/38/EC) is also clear that this is residing.

The Irish transposition of the Directive says only that the person must be lawfully resident in another member state, and does not specify the number of days.
S.I. No. 656 of 2006
European Communities (Free Movement of Persons) (No. 2) Regulations 2006

(2) These Regulations shall not apply to a family member unless the family member is lawfully resident in another Member State and is -
(a) seeking to enter the State in the company of a Union citizen in respect of whom he or she is a family member, or
(b) seeking to join a Union citizen, in respect of whom he or she is a family member, who is lawfully present in the State.

In fact the Irish transposition also talks about residence in Ireland for less than three months and residence in Ireland for more than three months.

Residence in the State
6. (1) Subject to Regulation 20, a person to whom these Regulations apply may reside in the State for
up to 3 months on condition that he or she -
(a) (i) where the person is a Union citizen, holds a valid national identity card or passport,
(ii) where the person is not a Union citizen, holds a valid passport, and
(b) does not become an unreasonable burden on the social welfare system of the State.

[Static]

I provided proof of residing in the UK by means of bills, letters and a rental contract.

For the Surinder Singh cases in the UK, the general recommendation is to prove that you've lived in another EU country, with the EU citizen "exercising his/her treaty rights", for at least six months. I don't know that this number is official, but I believe that's what's considered the least amount of time that the UK would look upon as "residency" and "exercising treaty rights". Maybe Ireland is doing the same?

If you are a spouse of an EU citizen, then there is no requirement that you be or intend to be in the UK for 6 months before you are considered resident. UK law explicitly considers you resident in the UK if you visit for a day or two. The UK transposition of Directive 2004/38/EC is The Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006 and says:

Initial right of residence
13.—(1) An EEA national is entitled to reside in the United Kingdom for a period not exceeding three months beginning on the date on which he is admitted to the United Kingdom provided that he holds a valid national identity card or passport issued by an EEA State.
(2) A family member of an EEA national residing in the United Kingdom under paragraph (1) who is not himself an EEA national is entitled to reside in the United Kingdom provided that he holds a valid passport.
(3) But—
(a) this regulation is subject to regulation 19(3)(b); and
(b) an EEA national or his family member who becomes an unreasonable burden on the social assistance system of the United Kingdom shall cease to have the right to reside under this regulation.

UK law is clear that the EU national and the non-EU family member are residing in the UK for any visit to the UK made on the basis of Directive 2004/38/EC.

EU law (in Directive 2004/38/EC) is also clear that this is residing.

The Irish transposition of the Directive says only that the person must be lawfully resident in another member state, and does not specify the number of days.
S.I. No. 656 of 2006
European Communities (Free Movement of Persons) (No. 2) Regulations 2006

(2) These Regulations shall not apply to a family member unless the family member is lawfully resident in another Member State and is -
(a) seeking to enter the State in the company of a Union citizen in respect of whom he or she is a family member, or
(b) seeking to join a Union citizen, in respect of whom he or she is a family member, who is lawfully present in the State.

In fact the Irish transposition also talks about residence in Ireland for less than three months and residence in Ireland for more than three months.

Residence in the State
6. (1) Subject to Regulation 20, a person to whom these Regulations apply may reside in the State for
up to 3 months on condition that he or she -
(a) (i) where the person is a Union citizen, holds a valid national identity card or passport,
(ii) where the person is not a Union citizen, holds a valid passport, and
(b) does not become an unreasonable burden on the social welfare system of the State.

Right.. now I am even more confused as to why I was rejected??

[archigabe]

I dont know much about how the bureaucracy works here,but is it possible these people are corrupt and harassing people into coughing up money? I dont know if anything else can explain this bizzare behaviour?

[runie80]

Money talks

Dont matter which country what level !

Its wierd how they are giving 2 opposite decisions for 2 similar cases

[Static]

heheh i dont know what sort of job you are looking for

But i only applied for jobs above 30k

as i already have a half decent job

but i can get a micky mouse job in 2 days thats not a problem

I don't understand... a micky mouse job? you already working then?

[runie80]

yes i am working but 20 hours as i am allowed to work 20 hours as i have currently applied for eu-1

and i have student visa on which i am allowed to work 2 hours per week and full time during summer holidays