Visit Visa issued then 4 days later cancelled

[eastwest]

Hi, this is my first post on this site. Very informative site, but no one seems to have a problem similar to ours.

I am a Bristish Passport holder (born in UK) and I have a girlfriend in Moldova whom I have been visiting since August last year (7 times). We met on RussianEuro.com.

My Girlfriend applied for a visit visa at the Embassy in Chisanau in September 2006 which was refused because she could not pronounce my surname for the ECO at interview or pronounce the name of my town (Yeovil). At the time I did not realise that Entry Clearance would be so difficult. I purchased airline tickets for her to join me in the UK, which were wasted because they were not refundable - Doh! I complained to UKVisas about this and then told me that I should not purchase any tickets until we had the visa.

In October she re-applied again for a visit visa, but was issued a refusal notice without interview saying that there was nothing materially different from the application in September. She was not given the chance to prove that she could pronounce my name and town.

In May 2007 she once again applied for a visit visa and I attended the interview as a witness this time. This time her English was much better and she satisfied the ECO on all the requirements for the visit. The ECO then declared that "on this occasion I am prepared to issue a full 6 month visit visa. If you return at 5:00 pm you will be able to collect your passport.â€

[avjones]

I think this is a case where you have to appeal -a fter being refused 3 times, you aren't going to get a visit visa without going before an Immigration Judge. I'd guess your appeal would stand a very good chance of success.

[sakura]

That is really, really weird. If you are telling us the truth (not that you'd lie...), it would seem from what you've written that maybe the questions you were asked after the interview were meant to trip you up or something. Maybe the interviewer thought it ok to issue you the visa, then after s/he passed on your answers to another person, they decided it was something dodgy?

I mean, why the hell would the ECO start talking about fiancee visas when you had already mentioned you were not (yet) interested in that? I didn't think they had to talk or tell you about such things, but anyway.

I swear, if you could sue the HO/BIA for incompetence....they seem so good at ignoring the facts and talking such BS it's ridiculous.

I think you should be able to appeal? Did they mention this to you? Though not everyone has the right to appeal, it should be included in your refusal letter if you do. It is odd that they gave you the visa, then repealed it...if you think they lied to you about the refusal then you should certainly try contacting someone (sadly I don't know who), because it is silly to lie that you stated you were going to marry when in fact you didn't.

[SYH]

Sounds like you will have to bite the bullet and put a ring on her finger if you want her to come to the UK.
Otherwise it is the immigration judge for you

[sakura]

Sounds like you will have to bite the bullet and put a ring on her finger if you want her to come to the UK.
Otherwise it is the immigration judge for you

But what would be the point of that? It would simply prove to the ECOs that that was their "covert" intention all along, and so what happens when they, after having 3 visit visas refused, enter the embassy with a fiancee visa?

That'll be a straight refusal, IMHO. Nevermind the fact that it would probably be a rushed decision to marry. They only want a holiday together, not a mortgage. So, IMHO the best thing to do is to get an appeal process or a complaint about the whole affair.

[SYH]

The point is that there is a relationship that supports her application to go to the UK. It doesn't prove they weren't honest. It just proves they are serious.

[sakura]

The point is that there is a relationship that supports her application to go to the UK. It doesn't prove they weren't honest. It just proves they are serious.

I know, but they were refused on the fact that the ECOs thought (and, it's what they think that counts!) that they were planning on getting married and having her into the UK permanently, so they didn't think she would return. So having a fiancee visa/spouse visa just proves it, and maybe (to them) signals something dodgy (i.e. immediately after 3 refusals, they get married, so they must be desperate to bring her to the UK any which way), and her initial intentions (visit) was simply a cover up. I'm not saying it would never be successful, but many ECOs are sceptical of having a visit visa refused then applying for another type of visa, especially spouse/fiancee visas.

Eastwest, do you have an appeal notice?

[SYH]

Different visa has different standards. Perhaps ECO feels it isn't worth the risk unless they put up (marriage) or shut up (give up)

[eastwest]

Hi everyone,

Many thanks for all of your comments. I never expected to see so much response so quickly.

Before I forget, we all know that people with silly Refusal Notices are not uncommon. Take a look at :http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6768405.stm I think you'll find this about sums up the competence or otherwise of the people with all the power!!

I am discussing the matter with an OISC Immigration Barrister at present and trying to decide whether we should take this case for judicial review or now apply for a fiancee visa.

It is all well and good saying that it looks suspicious if we now go for a fiancee visa, but we are boyfriend/girlfriend and the natural progression of a relationship if all goes well would be a marriage. To remaian as we are will not be an option.

As for the right of appeal, there is no right of appeal for a visit visa, because the person making the application is outside of the UK. If the application had been for a fiancee or spouse visa then I would have right of appeal as it concerns me living in the UK. The only recourse here is a judicial review in the High Court - which is expensive to put it mildy!!

What I fear really disappointed about is that the UKVisas appear to be pushing us into getting married before we are ready as there is now no chance of my girlfriend visiting the UK. I am going to Moldova again at the end of this month and we will be taking a holiday to another country. This will be my 8th trip to visit her. It would be nice if she could visit me and my family and friends for a change. I will be sure to make sure that the hotel is booked in both of our names as I need to keep very good evidence of a relationship now.

The point is that the visa was issued. This is what makes this case unique. I can't find anyone in the immigration sector who has ever heard of such a case.

Have I amswered everyones questions?

[SYH]

They always have the right to rescind if they feel the facts do not support the original issuance. Thus it doesn't matter they issued it,

[eastwest]

Except I was told by UKVisas not to buy tickets until I had a valid issued visa. How long does one have to wait before they can decide that a visa has really been issued ??

[SYH]

Except I was told by UKVisas not to buy tickets until I had a valid issued visa. How long does one have to wait before they can decide that a visa has really been issued ??

Yeah that's a bummer but not HO's concern. They have the right to monitor their borders and rescind permission to visit. Maybe you can ask them to reimburse you based on the facts but if I was you I would now get insurance for all your purchases related to travel.

[eastwest]

I don't know of a travel insurance firm that offers insurance against possibly visa cancellation - only death and accidents, etc.

[SYH]

go to travelsupermarket.com
I don't think it is that restrictive in terms of basis of cancellation, most insurance can be based on you decide to no to go or pursue it with the ho

[avjones]

"I am discussing the matter with an OISC Immigration Barrister at present and trying to decide whether we should take this case for judicial review or now apply for a fiancee visa."

It's HARD to JR an ECO's decision. Not impossible, but hard. Not necssarily hugely expensive, though, perhaps not as bad as you may think.

I got permission at a JR hearing on Friday for refusal of a visit visa, but the judge emphasised that it's rare to be able to JR. The fact that the Immigration Officer made mistakes of fact was crucial, though.

[eastwest]

Ok so I will discuss a JR with my Barister on Monday. This has to be decided quickly as there may be a time limit for this - I believe 28 days.

The sad fact though is that my girlfriend is taking this pretty badly and there is a big risk that she could decide that this whole issue is too much. I must admit I do know how she feels. Neither of us expected this when we started this relationship. I am going to visit her at the end of this month for 19 days. We will be taking a holiday in another country and we will talk things through. One of the options would be for me to marry her in Moldova and leave the UK permanently. This would mean closing down two businesses in the UK also. She hasn't been very impressed by what she has seen of UK hospitality and I can't really blame her. I didn't realise that this country was so unfriendly either until recently.

I don't know of any other country that demands that you have intimate knowledge of the country prior to traveling to it. Moldoav certainly didn't require this from me.

[SYH]

The reasons might not be credible to you but there might be some basis behind it. I was told that if you weren't able to spit off your age the second the question was asked, this was suspicious. For me, age is a state of mind and people are amazed how young I look compared to my true age. And to keep from aging, this is my motto, I don't obsess about how old I am. So when Immigration asked me how old I was, I had to think about it. This was a red flag and caused lots of problems so afterwards I always keep in mind my age when I pass immigration so it doesn't trip me up. Pretty stupid, isn't it.
There reasons for refusal could be a smoke screen. In any case, getting annoyed by it doesn't help you solve the problem and you are better off figuring out how to out smart them in the next round. However I dont quite understand the need to close down your businesses and leave the UK should you decide to marry.

[Jeff Albright]

I have a feeling that you are taking the decision of the ECM too much to your heart, Eastwest as if "that guy was so bad and unfriendly and wanted to push us into premature marriage".
The ECO or ECM have no personal feelings or issues towards individuals or have intention to show impression that "this country is so unfriendly". They simply do their job straight by the instructions in front of them.

Strictly speaking in terms of the Immigration Rules, your girlfriend stood 50:50 chance of being approved for the visa for the following reasons:

1. She has been refused a few times before for a visit and from what you have said I see that there were no material changes of her circumstances since.

2. There was insufficient evidence provided to the ECO that she would return at the end of her visit - the fact that her daughters were adults living independently from her, the fact that her job was not really secure enough, the fact there were no evidence before the ECO that she had any assets or any other strong ties with her original country, the fact that she has now a boyfriend living in the UK are all the indications that there is a chance that ON THE BALANCE OF PROBABILITIES she might not return at the end of her visit. From the number of cases I am familiar with, I can conclude that the ECO had the right to arrive at this decision. Note that the ECO only had to be satisfied that there is a probability that the conditions of the visa may be broken - the rules state that ECOs are never under obligation to be convinced that it will or it will not be the case.

3. The fact that she was not confident or articulate enough when presenting her application also prompted the lack of credibility.

I therefore see that the grant of the entry to the UK was in this particular case, very much at a discretion of the ECO because not all of the provisions of the Rules have been met. Whilst the ECO was prepared to exercise his discretion in her favour, the ECM was not.

Note that the UK is very much outside of the visa regulations of other EU (Schengen) countries and therefore have its own rules assessing the applicants. Whether or not she has been granted visas to other countries was not terribly relevant as far as the relevant Rules are concerned.

The present option for her is probably to apply to come to the UK as your fiancee if you are prepared to take your relationship further. I don't see the reason of you leaving this country and closing down your business. However, if you are prepared to do this, this means that the relationship is very much of importance to you so perhaps fiancee visa would be something to look into.

All the best,

[eastwest]

Thank you Syh and Jeff for your helpful comments.

I forgot to mention that my girlfriend owns her own apartment in Moldova. It may not be of the same value as property in the UK, but to her it is her entire investment.

Jeff I understand everything you have said concerning the ECO and the ECM, thank you.

Syh, I understand your comments about not knowing your age off the tip of your tongue. I have experienced similar issues myself.

And Jeff, as far as closing down the UK businesses are concerned, it was mentioned because I feel that the only way to have a future with my girlfriend would be to marry her and live in her country. It would be possibly to run a similar business in Moldova (I design and export electronic systems for aircraft). I hope that it will not come to this, but it is a strong consideration, because this relationship is very special.

And finally Jeff I come to your point about applying for a fiancee visa. I agree with you and my girlfriend and I have discussed this in the last 4 weeks - sooner than we expected of course. We have also discussed getting married in Moldova, but I hate the fact that we are discussing this 12 months earlier than we had planned due to her daughter still living at home.
My questions are this:
Will it look suspicious to the ECO/ECM if we now try for a fiancee visa? Will this prove their point that there was more to this visit visa application ?
Will this change of application go against us as there is no chance of a visit visa ever succeeding?
Or should we just get married in Moldova and apply for a spouse visa - or will this look even worse when we apply?
Or should I go for JR instead on the third failed visa?

One of the reasons why I have felt the need to rush is that I have been informed by my Barrister that the right of appeal for all visas could be ended in an instant. I refer to the following extract (IAS UK):

The power to remove the right of appeal
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Under s.29 of the Asylum and Immigration (Treatment of Claimants etc) Act 2004 the Government can remove rights of appeal against entry clearance refusal through statutory instrument having laid a draft which is approved by resolution of each House of Parliament.

The full extract can be viewed at : http://www.iasuk.org/C2B/PressOffice/di ... 236&Type=1

My concern is that if we waste too much time, the HO will "activate" this law at the same time that they introduce the new "points system" in January 2008.

Any comments?

[SYH]

The Visit Visa route is dead,
the JR is a long shot and probably a waste of time
They already determined that you plan to get married so why would they now count that against you in finance or spouse visa application

[eastwest]

Thank Syh.
I figured that if we applied for a fiancee visa they may try and say that we may be planning a marriage of convenience. Even if we got married in Moldova they could still say this. I suppose there is only one way to find out....

[vin123]

Sorry to read about your case, I guess it's purely a case of lack of credibility based on the strength of information supplied while appearing at ECO.

My theory is, it's not easy for a 3rd party (here in your case it's official) to get convinced about a relationship formed via internet, especially due to the very ambiguous nature of personalities seeking a possible relationship in contiguity unless both persons had certain demonstrable events with paperwork evidence of course.

Your GF would have had a better chance had she applied for a visitor visa with financial support from you and legal backing via a solicitor firm in Moldova - my few thoughts!

[Wanderer]

Your GF would have had a better chance had she applied for a visitor visa with financial support from you and legal backing via a solicitor firm in Moldova - my few thoughts!

I'd have done the Short Term Student Visa via a local agency, keeping 100% out of the picture, it's almost guaranteed if the school is a Dfes register and the girl actually attends! Means you don't see much of her but it's the first step on a very steep ladder.

It's what me and my Russian gf did, subsequent visas have been a formality and her immigration history consequently is 100% clean.

I'd suggest the OP try this but with three refusals it's prolly not gonna work.

[Jeff Albright]

I forgot to mention that my girlfriend owns her own apartment in Moldova.

The evidence of this should have been provided with the application although it is not sufficient to satisfy the returnability criterion alone.

And Jeff, as far as closing down the UK businesses are concerned, it was mentioned because I feel that the only way to have a future with my girlfriend would be to marry her and live in her country.

Why do you feel this way? If you marry her, your relationship is genuine and you both intend to live together as husband and wife and you provide all the documents, the Rules will be met in respect of the spouse criteria and there is no reason why she should be refused.

And finally Jeff I come to your point about applying for a fiancee visa. I agree with you and my girlfriend and I have discussed this in the last 4 weeks - sooner than we expected of course. We have also discussed getting married in Moldova, but I hate the fact that we are discussing this 12 months earlier than we had planned due to her daughter still living at home.

Spouse visa is always preferrable, if it is an option for you. There are stronger grounds to come with it making it a stronger case so if it is something that you can consider, I would recommend using that route rather than the fiancee visa.
For your information, a long time ago I was also refused a visitors visa on similar grounds but was then granted a spouse visa without problems after marrying my British ex-wife in my original country.

Will it look suspicious to the ECO/ECM if we now try for a fiancee visa?

I repeat that the ECOs will not play by emotions considering her application. They only play by the rules, using I would say, rather a mechanistic approach. Each new application is considered on its own, on its merits and without prejudice to any previous decisions.
In particular, you will have to provide the evidence of your visits to her on many occassions (the point the ECM expressed in his refusal notice), your correspondence, the period you have known each other, etc etc. See the Diplomatic Procedures on the UKVisas website for the documents to be required.

I wouldn't recommend the JR or any other appeal route at this stage because the ECM was legally correct refusing the visa and the Immigration Rules is the first and the foremost factor that is taken into account by the UK courts. It only makes sense to appeal if there is a possibility that the ECO could have made an error of law. Therefore any appeal, JR, if applicable, under the Immigration Rules will probably fail. Other factors such as Human Rights or Asylum are not applicable to your girlfriend's case so there won't be any arguments or exceptional grounds "outside the rules" for which her application should have been granted.

[eastwest]

Thanks Jeff.
I appreciate your full reply.

I have bought an engagement ring and I intend to propose to her during our holiday when I go out at the ned of the week. If she says "yes" then we will plan to get married in Moldova probably in September. It will take this long before I can get my certificate of No Impediment and my criminal records certificate and have it legalised, translated and legalised again!!

Thanks everyone!