Citizenship applications from Northern Ireland

[esrimve5]

I've been searching this forum high and low, and the information on this topic is scarce and/or not consistent. So I'd like to open a new thread where all those who apply for Irish citizenship from Northern Ireland could share information, so that in the end we could have some sort of a concentrated knowledge base of the topic.

So first thing's first. Out of the two residence-based routes to Irish citizenship, e.g. independent 5-year residence and 3-year residence while married to an Irish citizen, only the latter can be used when applying from NI, since the former requires that residence to be taken in the State, rather than on the island of Ireland as a whole. This probably narrows down those, who would find this thread useful.

Being a minority among those who apply for Irish citizenship each year, NI applicants like myself often find it confusing when answering certain questions on Form 8, mainly because the form itself was designed with the majority of applicants in mind, e.g. those who reside and apply in the State. Since the instructions on the form are unclear about the NI applicable rules, people tend to contact the Citizenship Division of the Department for Justice and Equality (or other sources?) in search of additional information. Some of it is reported here, but many questions remain unanswered. So I suggest that we start with sharing that limited information that we managed to obtain by listing a source, a question that was asked and the answer provided. So here goes:

Source: Niall O'Callaghan, Citizenship Division (by email)
Question: All my residence permits were issued by the UK and since we do not live in the Republic, I have never been registered with An Garda Síochána and therefore have no GNIB, PPS or Person ID number mentioned in the section 2. What should I write in these fields?
Answer: You can mark 'N/A' in these fields

Source: as above
Question: I do not have any Irish residency permission stamps in my passport so I cannot use the residency calculator mentioned in the section 5, yet in the same section it is stated that I “must print a copy of the report and include it with this application. If you do not do so your application will be deemed ineligible”. What should I do about this?
Answer: You do not need to complete the online residency calculator as you are living in Northern Ireland.

Source: as above
Question: In the section 5 there is a question asking “have you been absent from the State for more than 6 weeks per annum in any of the past 5 years”. Since I do not live in the State, what should I write here?
Answer: You should answer this based on your time in Northern Ireland.

Source: as above
Question: Section 14 asks to provide details of three referees. Could these referees be related to me?
Answer: No, these referees should not be related to you but should be Irish Citizens.

These were the questions that I asked and had them answered. After sending off my application I discovered that I probably should have attached a report from PSNI, requested on the form DAT1. This information appears literally nowhere on the Irish authorities websites and the only mentioning of it that I found was in a couple of posts on this forum. I am still not 100% sure that this is what I should have done, so I'd like to ask the members who already went through the application process to share their experience. I'd also like to extend a particularly warm invitation to @crisbella218, @yankeegirl, @Stanic and everyone else who has been through this process in the last few years.

[yankeegirl]

Hi esrimve5,

Regarding sending the PSNI check, you're absolutely right, it appears nowhere in the guidance notes or on the INIS website. A year or two ago, there was another poster on here (I can't remember the name) that written that she was advised by a solicitor to do so as a time-saving measure. If it was sent with the application, they would not have to write to you to request it, etc. It's my understanding that, in the event an applicant from NI has not sent the PSNI check, they will write and request that you do at some stage during processing. However, that information is a year or two old, so as always, best to double check with the Citizenship division. If you have your reference number, I'd imagine you could send it on as soon as you receive it.

Great idea for a thread, by the way! Might be worth sending a moderator a message and having them sticky it so it stays on the first lage?

[noajthan]

You can be assured some moderators' spidey senses twitching;
will just see how it pans out for a bit.

(If to be a sticky then offtopic posts and random questions won't fly).

[esrimve5]

Thanks yankeegirl, that's roughly what I assumed. Will wait for INIS to send me the first letter, see what they ask for. BTW, how long did it take them to process your application?

[Stanic]

Thanks esrimve5, It would be helpful if this could be made a sticky on the forums, we are the minority but still enough of us looking for answers, and as the questions are so specific having them joined in one forum post is great.

This may be very specific but it may be helpful to someone:

My wife got a "Residence Card of a Family Member of an EEA National" from the UK Home Office as we exercised treaty rights (this may be harder to do as an NI person as it was a bit of a loophole some years ago).

This Residence Card in her passport was for 5 years and the date expired the month after we received confirmation of her application for Irish citizenship.

Some months after application she got a letter from INIS requesting "“Please submit a copy of your current in date residence permit”.

I called the British Home Office – UK Visas and Immigration and they stated that there is no requirement to renew the Residence Card, as we are exercising Treaty Rights and the right to live in Northern Ireland continues. The Residence Card helps with re-entering the country and showing employers entitlement to work in the UK. They said the card requires an expiry date but that this doesn’t affect entitlement to live and work in the UK.

I asked today if they have any documentation stating this, but they said they do not publish anything, however at the following link I found:

https://www.gov.uk/apply-for-a-uk-resid ... d/overview

“You may be able to apply for a residence card if you’re from outside the European Economic Area (EEA) and you’re the family member, or extended family member, of an EEA national.

You don’t need to apply for a residence card as a family member but it can:

•help you re-enter the country more quickly and easily if you travel abroad


•show employers you’re allowed to work in the UK


•help prove you qualify for certain benefits and services”

So I emailed this info to INIS and also said how my wife had met the required criteria on the application as she had to be holding a current residence card, which it was at the time of application.

No further questions were asked. Not sure if this will help anyone, but useful to have here just in case. It was worrying for a while until it was resolved!

[esrimve5]

Thanks a lot for the info, Stanic. If I understand correctly, you are an Irish citizen born outside of NI, and therefore not a British citizen by birth. If so, my situation is a bit different, since my wife was born here, and is as such a dual citizen of both UK and RoI. Because of this I had to apply to the UK authorities as the spouse of a British citizen and all my residence permits issued were actually obligatory. So in theory, from the residence permit point of view, it should be pretty straightforward in my case, but a few days ago I saw that crisbella218's application was refused on the grounds of residence with the following obscure wording: "For the purposed (sic) of calculating this residency, no period may be taken into account where a non-national was required to have permission to remain from the UKBA if resident in Northern Ireland but did not have that permission." Accordingly to crisbella218 she had residence permissions for over 3 years, so that makes me wonder, if this was a human error on either side, or maybe there are some unpublished rules for NI, like the one with the PSNI check. Crisbella218, would you mind telling us a bit more?

[Stanic]

I'm from NI, my wife is non-EEA, I had a British passport but got an Irish one because at the time my wife could get the residence card as the spouse of an EEA national (Irish passport) living/working in the UK. I know of a few people that did it this way, cheaper and simple compared to the alternative, but the forms have changed so I'm not sure if it's still possible.

So she basically had indefinite leave here due to the Residence card/treaty rights.

If there are issues with permissions, I'm not sure if you could claim staying here with treaty rights, as I don't think you need an official document. Lawcentreni used to be fantastic for free legal help, unfortunately they lost their funding. I never found the citizens advice bureaus to be helpful.

[esrimve5]

Understood, thanks for the explanation. As a matter of fact, I do not think I personally have any issues with residence permits (or at least I didn't until I read crisbella218's post). I wonder if that loophole still works, e.g. a British citizen with another EU passport bringing the non-EEA spouse into the UK by exercising the free movement rights. If it does, it could be a huge help for those who are trying to get into the UK and fail because of not meeting the financial requirements.

[yankeegirl]

Understood, thanks for the explanation. As a matter of fact, I do not think I personally have any issues with residence permits (or at least I didn't until I read crisbella218's post). I wonder if that loophole still works, e.g. a British citizen with another EU passport bringing the non-EEA spouse into the UK by exercising the free movement rights. If it does, it could be a huge help for those who are trying to get into the UK and fail because of not meeting the financial requirements.

It no longer works, for the most part. Check out old posts regarding the McCarthy judgement. However, I think there have been a few British/other EU dual citizens that have managed to being a non-EEA spouse in by renouncing their British citizenship. I seem to remember reading a thread about it on here not that long ago. There is a fee to do so, and the process isn't particularly quick, but it does seem to be a viable option.

[crisbella218]

Hi guys.

Sorry to bring this post alive again but I noticed my name was mentioned. I haven't been on the forum for a while as I was frustrated with my refusal.

Indeed the wording on my "first" refusal letter was confusing. After writing to them again they had to resend me a new one as they didn't even understand it! So basically they had only taken the date from my marriage until my application for my residency (no explanation why) even though I had included documentation showing I had lived in Belfast half a year before my marriage (even though I had been in NI since 2011). The problem was not explained in my first refusal letter but it was refused as I spent over 6 weeks (6 months exactly) outside the Island of Ireland to give birth to my son in China and be looked after by my parents. So when that 6 months was taken out of my time from my wedding to my application in May it was 142 days lacking.

I am now doing my application again (sending in the post tomorrow) as this time as now lapsed. However the application form has changed and included reference to Northern Ireland for the first time.

However as I said I could not get an explanation why they could not consider my time before my wedding. They simply wrote "we can't consider this time before your marriage".

Hope this helps for those applying from Northern Ireland. Just don't be outside the Island of Ireland for more than 6 weeks as this period will not be counted.

[nukes]

Very interesting post indeed. Thanks.
I put this scenario and advice welcomed on it. Citizen of england living in Eire. Potentially could spend more than 6 weeks away from the country ie. visitng family in england and also engaging in marathon running around the globe. Will this mitigate/prevent a successful application for citizenship? If it does, could not the 6 week limit be circumvented by travelling out of Belfast or Derry airport??? Also in the melting pot is the Common Travel Area arrangement which does not hinder in any way residence and travel between the two islands. If this is ssuported/encouraged by the very existence of the law, is it slightly contradictory (if at all) to say such people can exercise this right but they cannot exercise the right to citizenship within it should they wish to travel more than six weeks?

[crisbella218]

Very interesting post indeed. Thanks.
I put this scenario and advice welcomed on it. Citizen of england living in Eire. Potentially could spend more than 6 weeks away from the country ie. visitng family in england and also engaging in marathon running around the globe. Will this mitigate/prevent a successful application for citizenship? If it does, could not the 6 week limit be circumvented by travelling out of Belfast or Derry airport??? Also in the melting pot is the Common Travel Area arrangement which does not hinder in any way residence and travel between the two islands. If this is ssuported/encouraged by the very existence of the law, is it slightly contradictory (if at all) to say such people can exercise this right but they cannot exercise the right to citizenship within it should they wish to travel more than six weeks?

For travelling to England you should be fine. The problem with mine is that I have no exit stamps leaving UK but when I arrive and exit China there is stamps plus when I return to UK. So I have to list all my periods outside Island of ireland as they can simply check the stamps on my passport. As you would have no stamps going from Belfast or Derry to England there would be no way to show you were not on the Island of Ireland for more than 6 weeks. I don't think Dublin airports give you entry of exit stamps if your flying between Uk and Ireland. If not your fine.

If applying from Northern Ireland question 5.6 should be read as "have you been absent from the Island of Ireland for more than 6 weeks per annum in any of the past 5 years?"

In my first application I put N/A and then they asked me to fill it in again and give them a list of all absences from Island of Ireland. Then they refused as was 6 months out. Leaving me 142 days short of the 3 year period. Hence why I've applied back again today as this time has lapsed.

[nukes]

Thanks Crisbella. My intention is to retire/move to the north west next September. Regarding Dublin. I have a freind who works at passport control. I am informed there is no log of folk who fly in or out of Dublin to england. As you suggest, even if there was, there is still the option of Derry or Belfast. How do I go about getting stamps on the relevant document (passport?) if no such stamps are entered at border control? I still wonder if the six week rule applies to some english national bearing in mind the Common Travel Area arrangement? Again thanks, very helpful.

[crisbella218]

Thanks Crisbella. My intention is to retire/move to the north west next September. Regarding Dublin. I have a freind who works at passport control. I am informed there is no log of folk who fly in or out of Dublin to england. As you suggest, even if there was, there is still the option of Derry or Belfast. How do I go about getting stamps on the relevant document (passport?) if no such stamps are entered at border control? I still wonder if the six week rule applies to some english national bearing in mind the Common Travel Area arrangement? Again thanks, very helpful.

I don't think there is a way to get stamps put in your passport after travel. Within the EU I think most countries don't stamp passports so the only record would be the airline.

The six week rule applies to anyone I'm afraid. The basis of gaining Irish citizenship is residence in Ireland. If you lived in England for most of the time during the year you would not be considered acceptable for Irish citizenship. One of the questions on the form is where you intend to live after you get citizenship. So if you answered England I'm sure a few eyebrows would be raised. On the main government website it says eligibility for Irish citizenship includes: "Intend in good faith to continue to reside in the State after naturalisation". The common travel area does not override that.

[nukes]

Thank you again. Yes, I understand the good faith question and I can affirm in good faith etc. Being the devils advocate I guess there is still no mechanism to verify the situation going to and from england, as documents are not stamped. Regarding the stamps, I thought there is an annual process whereby a stamp is required as proof of residence, where this is entered I am not sure or by whom. An english bod can't just go over stay for five years (or three) and say hey, I've been here the required time based upon their word and be handed citizenship. (excuse the flippancy).

[jlolololo]

Hello all, joining the thread as we have just applied for my husband's citizenship by naturalisation from Northern Ireland.

One question - can he gets his passport back before they decide or do they keep it for the duration of the process?

[Kadorkidor]

Good morning to everyone hey jlolololo can I ask you a question can you be able to tell me what documents you submit with your application I'm thinking of applying for citizenship from Northern Ireland thanks

[Kadorkidor]

Hello all, joining the thread as we have just applied for my husband's citizenship by naturalisation from Northern Ireland.

One question - can he gets his passport back before they decide or do they keep it for the duration of the process?

Any advice would be appreciated

[chaoclive]

Hello all, joining the thread as we have just applied for my husband's citizenship by naturalisation from Northern Ireland.

One question - can he gets his passport back before they decide or do they keep it for the duration of the process?

I asked the Citizenship Unit this question and they said:

"The original passport should be returned to the applicant once the application has been initially assessed, usually within 3/4 weeks."

[crisbella218]

Hello all, joining the thread as we have just applied for my husband's citizenship by naturalisation from Northern Ireland.

One question - can he gets his passport back before they decide or do they keep it for the duration of the process?

Any advice would be appreciated

So just for Northern Ireland advice I posted these documents off with my application last week and on my first application. Like I said the only problem with my first one was I was outside Island of ireland for 6 months so I didn't have 3 years.

• My birth certificate (certified copy)
• My Passport bio page (certified copy) and my ORIGINAL passport.
• Spouse passport bio page (certified copy)
• Spouse Birth certificate (certified copy)
• Son's Irish passport (certified copy)
• Son's birth certificate (certified copy)
• Marriage certificate (certified copy)
• UK Biometric card copy (certified copy)
• Copy of last 6 pay slips
• P60 copies for years 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015 and 2016.
• 3 different bills for me and my spouse for last 3 months at our current address
• Bills for the last 3 years for myself showing date and address
• PSNI Criminal Record Check
• Letter from employer
• Last 3 months bank statements
• 2 passport photos signed on the back by solicitor
• Application form
• Bankers draft issued by Ulster Bank
• List of absences outside Ireland since I arrived in Ireland on 19th April 2011.

In my circumstances I was applying as a spouse of an Irish citizen. As I have a son who is also Irish I included his document just to show I have a link with Ireland through my son.

The time I have been told the passport should come back is 3/4 weeks so don't make any plans for at least 5. They do not require to keep the passport only to check it for entry stamps, visas and other information.

[Herde]

To hopefully pay a little back for the information I read on this forum (caveat IANAL) given I got my approval/pay €950 letter today.

My wife is an irish citizen. I was resident on the Island of Ireland for 3 years and so could apply for irish citizenship on the basis of marriage. I arrived in Northern Ireland on a UK Tier 2 work visa, and am currently on a Spousal Visa. Some things that might help:

• They are strict on the number of days...but you can travel for 6 weeks before having to count it.
  I included printed photos of us (maybe 100) over our past 10 years together (you can see us getting older)
  I included my son's irish passport and photos of him, me and my wife together
  I included more examples of address confirmation stuff than requested (and more types as well)
  I included a completed DAT1 form from the PSNI - https://www.psni.police.uk/globalassets ... t-form.pdf
  Don't worry about lack of GNIB and Social Security Number, they know you don't have one if you live in the North (I included my NHS Number, election ID and Social Security numbers though)
  Double check your application form before applying, they didn't like the look of my birth certificate so requested another copy...
  You can pay using an AnPost money order (even though it says you can't) - but I emailed to get approval before doing so - and included the approval email in my application

[Angelontheground]

Hi everyone I wondering if someone could help me.
I am living in Northern Ireland and married to Irish national from last 3 years. And i have a EEA residence card Issued from UKBI.
I look at the requirements for Irish Naturalisation through marriage is 3 years.

Can I apply for Irish Naturalisation on the basis of 3 years continuous residence on island of Ireland as a spouse of Irish National.
Or
Do I need to live 5 years and then apply?
I am bit confused because mostly people apply after 5 years but mentioned only 3 years.
Thanks

[chaoclive]

It's definitely 3 years living on the island of Ireland as long as you are married/in a civil partnership with the Irish citizen.

The details are here:
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/mo ... tml#l1f4da
http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/WP16000022

My civil partner applied in August 2017 but hasn't heard anything back yet! He also has a UK-issued residence card under EEA law.

[Angelontheground]

Thank you so much for your reply actually this is the bit which confuses me. Why they are referring 5 years. I m just concerned that may be they have any requirements to must live 5 years before apply for Naturalisation under atleast 3 years of being married/ civil partnership.
2 out of 4 and then 1 continuous before application.


Residence:

You must:
"Have resided on the island of Ireland for at least 3 years out of the last 5 years, including 1 year of continuous residence immediately before the date you apply."

"You must have had a period of 1 year's continuous reckonable residence - see below - in the island of Ireland immediately before the date of your application, and during the 4 years preceding that, have had a total reckonable residence in the island of Ireland amounting to 2 years. Altogether you must have a total of 3 years reckonable residence out of the last 5 years."


OR this is just for guidance to count 3 years just under last 5 years not more then 5.

Please correct me and help me to understand.
Thanks alot
And I wish you and your partner will receive good news very soon.

[Arr51]

How long have others applications taken to recieve a decision under marriage to an irish national living in Ni? We applied 13 months ago and still no decision!:(