Thai civil partner needing to pas the test

[gbswales]

My Thai partner came here in April last year and we established a Civil Patnership in August and then applied for the two year extension which we got without a hitch. He is much younger than me and the long term aim is for him to study at college or university but we have to wait until the first academic year following his third anniversary before he can be treated as a home student. The fees as an international student are way beyond our means. He has been taking advantage of occasional free english classed and his level of communication is such that he can follow TV programmes and converse on most things - he also uses msn and email usually preferring to chat at speed in english.

I feel quite angry that his life in the UK with his partner is dependent on passing an exam that has very little relevance to anyone and which I and many of my friends can only scrape a pass about half of the time. The problem with the test is that as well as the obsucure knowledge required the syntax used is difficult to the point that some seem like trick questions and the multiple choice answers are far too close in many cases - whoever needed to know how many people lived in Wales or how many MP's there are. I live in Wales and have no idea and for that matter dont care how many other people share this lovely country with me!

We are starting now to work towards the test but it is hard going. I am not looking for sympathy I am in fact empathising with the many of you who have or will have to take this absurd test. I wonder whether other UK citizens getting married to other UK citizens would feel if the continuance of their marriage depended their partner passing this absurd exam.

The rules that have been brought in, and are still being brought in, are designed to quell public opinion about the increasing level of immigration even though the immigrants most complained about (from eastern europe) do not have to satisfy any tests or even speak basic english. If anyone knows of any campaign to get this unjust removed I would be happy to join it. For Citizenship I can understand the need for it because people make this choice for themselves and need to demonstrate committment but they are able to do so after many years of being immersed in British culture.

I feel ashamed of being British thesedays

[thsths]

The problem with the test is that as well as the obsucure knowledge required the syntax used is difficult to the point that some seem like trick questions and the multiple choice answers are far too close in many cases - whoever needed to know how many people lived in Wales or how many MP's there are.

I completely agree. The test is an insult to any intelligent person (and even worse it is quite a challenge for less intelligent people, because of the bizarre phrasing). I do not object to a basic knowledge of live in the UK in general, but the tests needs to be improved a lot.

As a rule, I would kick out any question that British people have trouble answering. If they do not know the answer, it cannot be important for living in the UK. Instead I would add a few simple questions about every day life. But then again nobody is going to listen to me.

Tom

[whirly]

Yes, it's a stupid test. I promptly forgot every statistic the day after I passed it, and it hasn't mattered to anyone in my daily life that I can't recite the percentage of the British population that considered themselves Buddhist in 2001. None of my British friends know or care, either.

The thing I still don't understand (and posted in a different thread about the test) is WHY oh WHY don't they ask questions from Chapter 7: Knowing the Law. That was the only section of the study guide that I thought any immigrant should actually be required to learn.

Otherwise, it is what it is. Good luck getting it repealed.

[PaperPusher]

What is a fake or non-genuine immigrant?

[John]

So gbswales, if you don't think your partner is up to taking test, just tell him ...... don't take the test! After all there is an alternative ... instead of providing a pass certificate from the Life in the UK Citizenship test .... he should provide a completion certificate from a combined ESOL/Citizenship course.

So why not try to find such a course in your locality, and get him on to that route.

As regards the test, is it a good idea? The think the main purpose of the test is to ensure that applicants have a reasonable knowledge of the English language, and yes it helps if they know something about the country in which they are living.

Having said that I am pleased my (Thai) wife applied for her ILR and Naturalisation before the test/course requirement was added. But her knowledge of English language is good anyway.

I wonder whether other UK citizens getting married to other UK citizens would feel if the continuance of their marriage depended their partner passing this absurd exam.

Absolutely not the case! You can apply for 2-year extensions. The marriage/CP does not end!

the immigrants most complained about (from eastern europe) do not have to satisfy any tests or even speak basic english

Can you speak any Islandic? Or Greek? No? But you still have a right to go and live and work in those countries.

[gbswales]

So gbswales, if you don't think your partner is up to taking test, just tell him ...... don't take the test! After all there is an alternative ... instead of providing a pass certificate from the Life in the UK Citizenship test .... he should provide a completion certificate from a combined ESOL/Citizenship course.
So why not try to find such a course in your locality, and get him on to that route.
I have explored that route however as I mentioned because he is treated as an overseas student until September 2011 it would mean paying the full fees and £5,000 pa are simply beyond our income
As regards the test, is it a good idea? The think the main purpose of the test is to ensure that applicants have a reasonable knowledge of the English language, and yes it helps if they know something about the country in which they are living.
Personally I think there is a difference between applying for British citizenship and ILR however even if I accept the value of the test - it doesnt meet those requirements at the moment. Many of the questions are about obscure history and facts of daily life that most people do not come into contact with. Also the english required is ESOL level 3 which seems to have a level of grammar and vocabulary that some indiginous English people do not meet. I and most of my friends who have tried these tests passed only because we took a guess at at least a third of the questions - it should at the very least be something that the average british person would get right 99% of the time.

Having said that I am pleased my (Thai) wife applied for her ILR and Naturalisation before the test/course requirement was added. But her knowledge of English language is good anyway. I wonder however if she would know the population of wales, how many MPs there are or in what year women got the right to vote at the same age as men? Go on ask her! My partner taught himself english because his parents could not afford the fees - apart from a little study at an american institute in Bangkok. I am not wealthy and we need for him to work as well really but have decided he should study for, and pass this test first. However I am pleased for you both

I wonder whether other UK citizens getting married to other UK citizens would feel if the continuance of their marriage depended their partner passing this absurd exam.

Absolutely not the case! You can apply for 2-year extensions. The marriage/CP does not end!
If that is indeed the case then it is very good news - I have seen nothing in the Home Office so called guidence to suggest that he could continue doing this - by dooing this he could qualify as a home student and take the full time course at our local college - though we would have preferred to keep the first further education funding for something that would have more vocational value. However even if he didnt do the course it means longer to study. Do you know where I can confirm this officially as i cant believe that they would allow unlimited 2 year renewals? Of course the other risk is that legislation could change again making it even harder

the immigrants most complained about (from eastern europe) do not have to satisfy any tests or even speak basic english

Can you speak any Islandic? Or Greek? No? But you still have a right to go and live and work in those countries.

I was not displaying any personal prejudice here as I believe in free movement and other factors, such as getting work, will usually determine quite quickly whether you can successfully live in any country. Though I have to say I dont think I would expect to live in any country without some knowledge of the language. My partner has good enough english to understand most television and conversations. I speak only about 4 words of Thai and we communicate together quite normally - sure I have to repeat things occasionally as does he but that is a pronounciation issue nothing more. However according the the local IAS who tested him, his english is around level 1+ and they thought at least two years studying english was needed.

[JAJ]

the immigrants most complained about (from eastern europe) do not have to satisfy any tests or even speak basic english

Can you speak any Islandic? Or Greek? No? But you still have a right to go and live and work in those countries.

And if you did that and subsequently wanted to become an Icelandic or Greek citizen, as opposed to just being a legal resident, you most likely would need to learn one of the country's official languages. Most countries demand this as a pre-requisite for naturalisation.

[John]

I have explored that route however as I mentioned because he is treated as an overseas student until September 2011 it would mean paying the full fees and £5,000 pa are simply beyond our income

You either jest, or you have not investigated the course route. An ESOL/Citizenship course costs nothing like £5000 per year!

Suggest you have a (better) look for ESOL/Citizenship courses, and the cost of them.

Also the english required is ESOL level 3 which seems to have a level of grammar and vocabulary that some indiginous English people do not meet.

Absolutely not! The English level required is not ESOL level 3 ... it is ESOL Entry level 3, which is distinctly lower.

But I agree, many indigenous English people might fail to get to ESOL level 3, but few such people would fail to get to ESOL Entry 3 level.

If that is indeed the case then it is very good news - I have seen nothing in the Home Office so called guidence to suggest that he could continue doing this

You have seen nothing? Not sure where you have looked. If you download the form FLR(M) ... click here ..... and look at Q4.1, you will see that it caters for exactly the circumstance that might be in play here.

by dooing this he could qualify as a home student and take the full time course at our local college

Not sure that is the case. I think he needs ILR to be classed as a Home Student. But at least getting a further 2-year CP visa at least removes the time pressure to get the required certificate. And once the certificate is achieved, he can apply for ILR straight away, no need to wait until near the end of the new 2-year visa.

I wonder however if she would know the population of wales, how many MPs there are or in what year women got the right to vote at the same age as men? Go on ask her!

Well she is in Thailand at the moment on holiday, so no, I am not going to ask her. But I think you miss the point. It is of course the case that many indigenous UK people would fail the test ,,,,, or rather would fail the test unless they studied for it. In my mind this is exactly the same as if I, and I suspect you as well, sat for the GCSE English now without studying, we would do rather badly!

So study for the test is needed. That's just how it is. It is not going to change. Indeed I have to say that it is great that effectively there is a requirement to ensure a certain level of English ability, and to get the certificate. There are far too many people who came to the UK years ago who have never made any effort to learn English, and indeed who have been actively discouraged to learn English by their families. So breaking this cycle is great.

But I don't expect you to agree with that.

[thsths]

In my mind this is exactly the same as if I, and I suspect you as well, sat for the GCSE English now without studying, we would do rather badly!

I would hope not, although for some people a bit of studying would be a very good idea.

Indeed I have to say that it is great that effectively there is a requirement to ensure a certain level of English ability, and to get the certificate.

I agree completely, indeed the test should ask more questions on actually useful skills (such as English). The problem is that it focuses too much on marginally relevant trivia.

Tom

[Casa]

The other little anomaly with the test...if you were from another EU state living in the UK, and your spouse was Thai...they wouldn't need to pass the test for permanent residence. Only if they wanted to apply for BC.

[gbswales]

The only citizenship classes in the Swansea area are either run by the immigration advisory service and after asking him to write a "few random sentences" they said he would have to take english for a year or two first or by Swansea College who only run full time English with citizenship courses which for one year (as an international student) cost £5k. I work at Swansea University and have been able to establish that there are no other options than these two.

Lucklily my partner has a fairly good memory and so far is doing quite well by continually working through practice tests which concentrate on a chapter at a time.

When I referred to not finding information I was referrring to the guidance on the website and the information that he was given by the UK embassy in Bangkok in a letter they gave him and verbally told me. obviously we are not at the point of renewal yet so I have not downloaded the form again.

It is probably clear that my political belief is towards free movement so no test is going to be morally acceptable to me. But accepting situations as they are is something I am used to, albeit that sometimes (to relieve frustration with the system) I dont do so quietly. We did the entire application process for his visitor visa and the civil partnership on our own against advice from so called professionals that we stood very little chance because, living with his parents, he had no assests in Thailand. Though in any event we did not have the money to support legal representation anyway.

We shall push ahead with the test because I view each application as a risk and, even if the risk is small, the cost is certainly not! I would rather be funding my partners further education in something that will help improve his future, than pay it to the government.

As for the justness of the tests I am mainly going by the reaction of the people I have shown it to more than by my personal view. Including an english lecturer who teaches overseas students and declared it the most ridiculous set of questions that he had ever seen. I am quite capable of setting aside my personal views and looking at it objectively - the test is full of questions about statistical data rather than about the "way of life" in the UK.

Anyway thank you at least for the very useful information that I managed to glean between the lines of what has been written.