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human right for autistic son,s dad.

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bebe2
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human right for autistic son,s dad.

Post by bebe2 » Tue Dec 09, 2008 11:49 pm

hi all ,
a ? ponder
a parent in my son's school is been threarened with removal, his son is severely autistic .5 yrs old and no understanding or speech. he is in a special school, and also getting treatment from autism treatment trust(privately funded) the child was born here and live with his parent both illegal. he wud never get such specialist school in his dads home town in africa.
what could they do to regularise their stay.
hi

Wanderer
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Re: human right for autistic son,s dad.

Post by Wanderer » Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:05 am

bebe2 wrote:hi all ,
a ? ponder
a parent in my son's school is been threarened with removal, his son is severely autistic .5 yrs old and no understanding or speech. he is in a special school, and also getting treatment from autism treatment trust(privately funded) the child was born here and live with his parent both illegal. he wud never get such specialist school in his dads home town in africa.
what could they do to regularise their stay.
Sorry to be so antagonistic but why should the British Taxpayer foot the bill for this? Privately funded or not, ultimately it's them who pay....

I know it's not the kids fault but it is the parents as lawbreakers let's face it, and to be honest, heartless tho it seems the line has to be drawn somewhere.

Parents are not British, kid isn't either - does it always fall to the UK taxpayer to pick up the pieces? Over the past 30 years of my fully employed working life I've paid into the system and took precious little out, and to be brutally frank it rankles when people who have no right to be here take without giving - or so it seems to me, correct me if I'm wrong. Oh, of course I would give the kid my last penny, I've got my own, I know, but Jesus H Christ, I do feel mightily pissed off.

Rant over, thank you.
An chéad stad eile Stáisiún Uí Chonghaile....

sakura
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Re: human right for autistic son,s dad.

Post by sakura » Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:08 pm

bebe2 wrote:hi all ,
a ? ponder
a parent in my son's school is been threarened with removal, his son is severely autistic .5 yrs old and no understanding or speech. he is in a special school, and also getting treatment from autism treatment trust(privately funded) the child was born here and live with his parent both illegal. he wud never get such specialist school in his dads home town in africa.
what could they do to regularise their stay.
How long have they lived here? What country are they from? Have they submitted any application for discretionary leave or any other form of legal residency? If not, why not (i.e. advise from legel reps, no money, etc)?

It may be a very uphill battle. For example, earlier this year, a terminally ill (cancer) Ghanaian woman who had overstayed her visa was removed from the UK, after having lost her appeal. So, it is not impossible for this family to have the same result. I think it really depends on how long they have been here, and who is their legal rep.

bebe2
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Post by bebe2 » Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:00 pm

dear wanderer , you seem not to know how how the britisk system work. these parent have been here since 2000 ,and they have lived in my area since 2003 they have always worked. the man does over 60hrs a week from one cleaning job to the other and the wife also works 40hrs as a carer and pay N .I AND Taxes just like you but they never claimed maternity allowance ,child benefit , tax credit you probably do.

i understand they did wrong by being illegal but if for some reason this country became unbearable for you and there was a way you could get into another you would jump in first thjinking you would south the other out latter. they have saved and paid a private hospital to treat their son for autism as the nhs thinks there is no treatment.

in my opinion the only they get for free in this country the air they breath as their taxes and national insurance more than compensate for the others
and the uk should stop encouraging illegal so they can take their taxes, if ni num AB123456B pays a contribution for the first they should wonder who issued that num and trace the employer not pocket it. am sure that what technology is here for.

huuh rant over.

any solution?
hi

bebe2
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Post by bebe2 » Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:06 pm

hi sakura, answer to ur ?
they are from zambia, they have never put in an application as they just lived quietly without disturbance but the boy is getting older and immigration law are getting tough so the dad is worried . they have no legal rep yet.
hi

Wanderer
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Post by Wanderer » Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:55 pm

bebe2 wrote:dear wanderer , you seem not to know how how the britisk system work. these parent have been here since 2000 ,and they have lived in my area since 2003 they have always worked. the man does over 60hrs a week from one cleaning job to the other and the wife also works 40hrs as a carer and pay N .I AND Taxes just like you but they never claimed maternity allowance ,child benefit , tax credit you probably do.

i understand they did wrong by being illegal but if for some reason this country became unbearable for you and there was a way you could get into another you would jump in first thjinking you would south the other out latter. they have saved and paid a private hospital to treat their son for autism as the nhs thinks there is no treatment.

in my opinion the only they get for free in this country the air they breath as their taxes and national insurance more than compensate for the others
and the uk should stop encouraging illegal so they can take their taxes, if ni num AB123456B pays a contribution for the first they should wonder who issued that num and trace the employer not pocket it. am sure that what technology is here for.

huuh rant over.

any solution?
Pardon? The only benefit I've ever had is Child Benefit for our kids which we had when we could afford them.

Taxes/NI earned illegally might just about pay the removal costs of the offenders so don't give me that.

If life turned rotten for me here I'd do what my forefather's did against the Nazi's - stand and fight and claw my way out as I did in 2000 when I was unwilling to claim benefit because of pride.

That's enough from me, davia poka...
An chéad stad eile Stáisiún Uí Chonghaile....

sakura
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Post by sakura » Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:56 pm

bebe2 wrote: they have saved and paid a private hospital to treat their son for autism as the nhs thinks there is no treatment.
Is the private hospital recognised by the General Medical Council or other legal/government body?

What kind of treatment are they hoping to get? I'm just asking to make sure they do not lose their money to dodgy practitioners. Private medical care is usually quite expensive, especially for permanent developmental disorders. Maybe they can contact the UK National Autism Society and ask what kind of medical care is commonly offered.

As to their immigration status, when you write that they are being threatened with removal, do you mean that they have already received a letter and/or that the HO are aware of their presence? If that is the case, they really need to seek legal advice now and put in an application. If they are financially tight, Citizen's Advice Bureau offer free advice, but you can also search other charitable organisations.

However, the HR argument might not be enough; let's see what others suggest.

bebe2
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Post by bebe2 » Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:55 pm

yea,
some of your fore fathers tried to run away but were killed, others were rescued by the uk and its allies and you have decided to stay here bcos its easier, than your forefathers original homes. and if you are so proud to take benefit and you had your kids when you were financially able . and ignore the big ones that you re also entitled to. am never too proud to ask or even beg for my babies if i can get and they need it i will beg if i have to and what are you doing with 18.20 a week. it hardly worth the trouble, oh dnt forget people paid for over 30yrs to get your fore fathers out of the claws of the nazi.
hi

Vanadil
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Post by Vanadil » Wed Dec 10, 2008 5:25 pm

"The only they get for free in this country the air they breathe" .... and the fact they even have a system to pay NI and Tax to for healthcare, police, housing benefits, all the other benefits, education, water, heating, transport, a good government (better than most African), jobs.

Now I don't think that their contributions pay for ALL of that do they? Ok, it is good that they are paying it don't get me wrong, but at the end of the day they are illegal and must face the UK immigration service at some point or else we would collapse under the amount of immigrants waiting to get into, or are already in this country.

Sure this country isn't perfect, but it’s still one of the most civilised and well run countries in the world and I wish people, both UK nationals and immigrants would realise this more.


Ahh Ranting feels good

:D

bebe2
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Post by bebe2 » Wed Dec 10, 2008 6:24 pm

hi vandill
i agree this country is very good if it wasnt me and a host of other people wont be here.
i just found wanderer view a bit harsh.
i also agree their contribution wouldnt pay for all
but transport =oyster card
heating =bitish gas
thames water
housing= pivately rented
a good government=PICELESS ( for everything else there is mastercard)
:)
hi

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Frontier Mole
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Re: human right for autistic son,s dad.

Post by Frontier Mole » Thu Dec 11, 2008 1:39 am

bebe2 wrote:hi all ,
a ? ponder
a parent in my son's school is been threarened with removal, his son is severely autistic .5 yrs old and no understanding or speech. he is in a special school, and also getting treatment from autism treatment trust(privately funded) the child was born here and live with his parent both illegal. he wud never get such specialist school in his dads home town in africa.
what could they do to regularise their stay.
Heart rendering the circumstances might be but be assured UKBA will remove the family. There are many families in similar or worse positions that have been removed to countries where there is no free treatment or little hope of treatment for their children. The bottom line is clear in law, unless the removal will directly cause the death of the child - i.e. the flight and movement to from the airport the removal will take place.
There are very minimal rights for children born in the UK to illegal immigrant parents. Those that were in place were killed off this week.
It is not the news they will want to hear but perhaps they can ask the charity that is helping them in the UK to see if they can sort anything out in their country of origin.

bebe2
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Post by bebe2 » Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:30 pm

shouldnt they try to put in an application for discretionary leave to remain and see what happens?
spoke to the dad yesterday he said he did put in an application as an eea dependant on his brothjer who moved here from spain but the app. was refused bcos he did not live with his brother in spain asked to leave the country.

i thought the phrase met if living there wud kill the child or make him ill i never knew it was just the journey.

i am thinking of adopting the boy if the parent has to be deported i babysit him most times.
with all the documentary of child abuse coming from africa at the moment he would be labelled as some kind o freak and abused and he would probably rock himself to death in a few years.
hi

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Post by scorpiolady » Thu Dec 11, 2008 10:09 pm

bebe2 wrote: i am thinking of adopting the boy if the parent has to be deported i babysit him most times.
with all the documentary of child abuse coming from africa at the moment he would be labelled as some kind o freak and abused and he would probably rock himself to death in a few years.
Babysitting is a bit different from adoption. Adoption is permanent, not for in the meantime while parents get some status. Adopting a child with disabilities is a massive issue in itself. Have you discussed this idea of adoption with the parents? Have you accessed any information from Social Services about adoption and what it means for you, the parents and the child? Have you looked into it at all. It's not as easy as it sounds. It's not just a matter of the parents saying yes you can look after my child and you say okay then. You would need to go through vigorous checks which are quite lengthy. It could take up to 2 years for the necessary work to be done before you are apporoved for adoption. No guarantees you will get approved anyway. It's going to be even more difficult if not impossible if the child has no UK status.
Scorpiolady

sakura
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Post by sakura » Fri Dec 12, 2008 8:56 am

scorpiolady wrote:
bebe2 wrote: i am thinking of adopting the boy if the parent has to be deported i babysit him most times.
with all the documentary of child abuse coming from africa at the moment he would be labelled as some kind o freak and abused and he would probably rock himself to death in a few years.
Babysitting is a bit different from adoption. Adoption is permanent, not for in the meantime while parents get some status. Adopting a child with disabilities is a massive issue in itself. Have you discussed this idea of adoption with the parents? Have you accessed any information from Social Services about adoption and what it means for you, the parents and the child? Have you looked into it at all. It's not as easy as it sounds. It's not just a matter of the parents saying yes you can look after my child and you say okay then. You would need to go through vigorous checks which are quite lengthy. It could take up to 2 years for the necessary work to be done before you are apporoved for adoption. No guarantees you will get approved anyway. It's going to be even more difficult if not impossible if the child has no UK status.
Added to the fact that it would be an international adoption (non-UK/EU citizen child) and you might have to go through both Zambian and UK adoption laws. Plus, the parents would have to cede all rights to the child - they won't have any parental rights.

PaperPusher
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Post by PaperPusher » Fri Dec 12, 2008 3:44 pm

http://www.ait.gov.uk/Public/Unreported/IA150762007.doc


bebe2 here you can see a case with a sick child, they lost, even though the child's life could be shorter as a result.

Also see the immigration rules about adoption which I do not think will help this family at all:

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/polic ... les/part8/
Adopted children
309A. For the purposes of adoption under paragraphs 310-316C a de facto adoption shall be regarded as having taken place if:

(a) at the time immediately preceding the making of the application for entry clearance under these Rules the adoptive parent or parents have been living abroad (in applications involving two parents both must have lived abroad together) for at least a period of time equal to the first period mentioned in sub-paragraph (b)(i) and must have cared for the child for at least a period of time equal to the second period material in that sub-paragraph; and

(b) during their time abroad, the adoptive parent or parents have:

(i) lived together for a minimum period of 18 months, of which the 12 months immediately preceding the application for entry clearance must have been spent living together with the child; and

(ii) have assumed the role of the child's parents, since the beginning of the 18 month period, so that there has been a genuine transfer of parental responsibility.

Requirements for indefinite leave to enter the United Kingdom as the adopted child of a parent or parents present and settled or being admitted for settlement in the United Kingdom
310. The requirements to be met in the case of a child seeking indefinite leave to enter the United Kingdom as the adopted child of a parent or parents present and settled or being admitted for settlement in the United Kingdom are that he:

(i) is seeking leave to enter to accompany or join an adoptive parent or parents in one of the following circumstances;

(a) both parents are present and settled in the United Kingdom; or

(b) both parents are being admitted on the same occasion for settlement; or

(c) one parent is present and settled in the United Kingdom and the other is being admitted on the same occasion for settlement; or

(d) one parent is present and settled in the United Kingdom or being admitted on the same occasion for settlement and the other parent is dead; or

(e) one parent is present and settled in the United Kingdom or being admitted on the same occasion for settlement and has had sole responsibility for the child's upbringing; or

(f) one parent is present and settled in the United Kingdom or being admitted on the same occasion for settlement and there are serious and compelling family or other considerations which make exclusion of the child undesirable and suitable arrangements have been made for the child's care; or

(g) in the case of a de facto adoption one parent has a right of abode in the United Kingdom or indefinite leave to enter or remain in the United Kingdom and is seeking admission to the United Kingdom on the same occasion for the purposes of settlement; and

(ii) is under the age of 18; and

(iii) is not leading an independent life, is unmarried and is not a civil partner, and has not formed an independent family unit; and

(iv) can, and will, be accommodated and maintained adequately without recourse to public funds in accommodation which the adoptive parent or parents own or occupy exclusively; and

(v) DELETED

(vi) (a) was adopted in accordance with a decision taken by the competent administrative authority or court in his country of origin or the country in which he is resident, being a country whose adoption orders are recognised by the United Kingdom; or

(b) is the subject of a de facto adoption; and

(vii) was adopted at a time when:

(a) both adoptive parents were resident together abroad; or

(b) either or both adoptive parents were settled in the United Kingdom; and

(viii) has the same rights and obligations as any other child of the adoptive parent's or parents' family; and

(ix) was adopted due to the inability of the original parent(s) or current carer(s) to care for him and there has been a genuine transfer of parental responsibility to the adoptive parents; and

(x) has lost or broken his ties with his family of origin; and

(xi) was adopted, but the adoption is not one of convenience arranged to facilitate his admission to or remaining in the United Kingdom
; and
It may be time for your friend to get specialist advice.

As for it being the UKs fault for this family being here because they are paying NI and tax, that is rubbish IMO. Why should the UK government data match EVERY SINGLE NI contribution to EVERY SINGLE birth certificate and immigration record. These checks would have to be redone periodically because people do become overstayers. Do you have evidence that the number wasn't properly obtained, or even that it not a legal resident's number that has been hijacked.

And so what that they have paid for private treatment, the consultations with the NHS all cost money, when the mum gave birth, did she pay for it? Special schools also cost money, and more than mainstream education. If they are threatened with removal, all that beaurocracy costs money, along with court time - expensive. The flights will not be cheap either.

If ultimately they do have to leave, perhaps they could leave with this organisation's help in a more dignified way than enforced removal.

http://www.iomlondon.org/

The main thing is they are not going to get legal residency without applying for something at some point.

How did they enter the UK, when did they come, and what visas did they have then?

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Post by Frontier Mole » Fri Dec 12, 2008 9:40 pm

When all else fails blame UK plc for not having a system that automatically finds people with bogus NI numbers and kicks them out!
Not that is a great argument in itself but then again if we did have the system then the child would not have been born in the UK. Therefore would not have had the opportunities he has had which the UK has directly or indirectly had to pay for..... Kind of goes around in circles.

The bottom line - what are the parents going to do?
Not much hope of staying on in the UK if they do not appeal any removal. How successful that appeal will be is very doubtful. It will give them time in the UK but be assured as soon as all appeal rights are exhausted they will be shovelled out of the country very quickly.

As for adoption - that is a non starter even if the parents gave up all rights. The local authorities would take the child into care and it is a safe bet he would still be removed with the parents when they go. It would achieve nothing.

I think it is time for the parents to face up to the possible reality of returning and starting to plan for that event. Given the circumstances it would be better to agree a return date with UKBA so both parties can organise the return and ensure the best position for their family in their country of origin when they arrive. You will find UKBA will allow a reasonable period for these things to be dealt with and although it might sound defeatist it is a better way of going about it. Better than getting dragged out of bed and put in a detention centre for a few days before removal.

bebe2
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Post by bebe2 » Sat Dec 13, 2008 11:25 am

yea ,
i agree with you just read abouth a girl with celebral palsy whos appeal has been refused,
abit sad may be that why am not a judge i will probably cry all through the hearing.

and the parent are being advised by ias in north london and their support group is helping as much as they can.
hi

bebe2
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Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 5:08 pm

Post by bebe2 » Sat Dec 13, 2008 11:26 am

yea ,
i agree with you just read abouth a girl with celebral palsy whos appeal has been refused,
abit sad may be that why am not a judge i will probably cry all through the hearing.

and the parent are being advised by ias in north london and their support group is helping as much as they can.
hi

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